F-22 Raptor Thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
...and, if you couldn't touch dat (from my earlier F-22 post), den, no one was ever going to ever...no how, no way...touch dis
yf23-02.jpg



'cause dat's the best'est, prettiest, most graceful, baddest fighter aircraft dat was ever built by man kind.

Of course, purely in my opinion.

Wish we had 200 of those flying as well right now.

I mean, if we can build both versions of the LCS, we could have built both versions of the ATF!

That's why I call you the Head Master, always putting it out there, just pull out your old slide rule and protractor, tweak her with some of the fancy High Zoot avionics from the F-35, and "viola" sixth gen paradise, then I could take off my black ninja mourning attire for my little Raptor, and pray for Ronny Reagan the II, then things could be right with the world. brat
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
I was just looking over old conversations and arguments about the "superiority" of canard emplacements, but...

I think I proposed a while back the concept of a J-20 as a developmental platform, a sort of anti-F-35, in that it can be progressively upgraded to newer and better capabilities. One of the key points was that if the J-20 had reliable TVC, it could eschew tailfins to enhance maneuverability.

When I was called out on this, I was unable to come up with an adequate retort, but if you look at the documentation around the American X-36, this can be easily explained.

Tailfins provide stability and yaw control for most aircraft, and V-tails provide a combination of roll and yaw. With present aircraft, they are a necessary feature, enabling maneuverability and stability. With the X-36, split ailerons, like the ones used on B-2s, combined with canards and thrust vectoring, were used to provide an alternative source of yaw control. This allowed the experimentalists to remove the tailfin on the X-36, further reducing its RCS and drag.

With regards to the J-20, I suspect that the J-20 will come in three phases.

The first would be the J-20A, with initial operating capability, decent stealth, speed, range, and adequate maneuverability. It would be able to have a combat range of over 2,000 KM, as well as be able to knock out enemy fighters in BVR and perhaps be able to snipe out AWACs aircraft from long range and high speed, although it appears it lacks the weapons bay for this purpose (you really want ~300nm range AWACs killer payloads on the J-20! E-2Ds will be able to reliably detect the J-20 using its VHF radar at maybe 200-300 nm, so better reward them for their snooping by killing them while out of range of their fighter escorts!)

The second would be the J-20B, which would probably have enhanced engines on top of the J-20A, perhaps with enhanced thrust to weight ratios and perhaps first-generation thrust vectoring. This aircraft would probably be able to outmaneuver the F-22, given that it's a newer aircraft, it uses a novel aerodynamic layout (lerx-canard-lerx-delta-lifting body), and has TVC as well. Against the PAK-FA, it may be mildy inferior, or it may be around the same WVR capability, or even better. It doesn't matter that much, though, since the PAK-FA is not that optimized for stealth and if the J-20 wants to pick a fight (against perhaps the Vietnamese), it would probably be able to kill it in BVR.

The third version would be the J-20C, a tailfin-less J-20B that relies on TVC to ditch the tailfins. Perhaps the delta wing would be modified as well, as the tailfins and strakes are necessary components of its infrared emissions control scheme and different engine exhausts would be necessary for this feature, adding perhaps split ailerons as well to increase stealth and compensate for the loss of yaw control from losing the tailfins.

This version would have moderately reduced drag compared to the A and B versions; the X-36 is supposed to have 10-20% less drag than the F-15, while the already small tailfins on the J-20 would likely reduce the drag reduction to 10% at best. More importantly, the removal of these tailfins would reduce weight, as well as reducing RCS; resulting in both better maneuverability and better RCS reduction compared to the A and B versions.


Many people think even the insistence on TVC during F-22 development was a mistake.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Many people think even the insistence on TVC during F-22 development was a mistake.

Yeah Chuckles, the people at Northrop/McDonnell Douglass, Eurofighter, Dassault, Sukhoi, Chengdu, Mikoyan, and Shenyang, and sadly a few of our friends, who thanks to a liberal congressman, can't buy the F-22, Lt. Col Christopher Niemi, and last but not least, Chuck, who brought us this Sino Defence, "chuckle of the day"......End off topic, lets not re-invent the wheel here gentlemen, Chengdu will get the J-20 up and running, it will get a decent Chinese power plant, and elimination the empennage will NOT make it more maneuverable, even if OVT were dropped in their lap tomorrow.

The honest truth is that the J-20 is currently on the back burner, waiting for an official "blessing", such as was be-stowed on the Liaoning and J-15, so gentleman, Navy is leading Air Force, 24-7 early in the third quarter. brat
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Yeah Chuckles, the people at Northrop/McDonnell Douglass, Eurofighter, Dassault, Sukhoi, Chengdu, Mikoyan, and Shenyang, and sadly a few of our friends, who thanks to a liberal congressman, can't buy the F-22, and last but not least, Chuck, who brought us this Sino Defence, "chuckle of the day"......t

Listen, Brat, why don't you actually try and learn a few things? Go read some post mortems on f-22 program by actual serving officers in the US Air Force, Brat. You might be surprised to find that all rousing gung ho publicity feed to the eager uninformed not withstanding, f-22 is not considered by those actually tasked with figuring out how best to fulfill the real missions the Air Force needs to perform to have been a unmitigated success in its own right, nor did it fit comfortably into sustainable long term force structure of the Air Force. Brat. The US Air Force sold its soul for the F-22. In the end the F-22 as developed wasn't worth it's soul. But the spin machines sought avoid any admission of this 20 year mistake by crafting the story calculated for suckers like you to buy to shift the blame, Brat.

Here is one:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
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Inst

Captain
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Listen, Brat, why don't you actually try and learn a few things? Go read some post mortems on f-22 program by actual serving officers in the US Air Force, Brat. You might be surprised to find that all rousing gung ho publicity feed to the eager uninformed not withstanding, f-22 is not considered by those actually tasked with figuring out how best to fulfill the real missions the Air Force needs to perform to have been a unmitigated success in its own right, nor did it fit comfortably into sustainable long term force structure of the Air Force. Brat. The US Air Force sold its soul for the F-22. In the end the F-22 as developed wasn't worth it's soul. But the spin machines sought avoid any admission of this 20 year mistake by crafting the story calculated for suckers like you to buy to shift the blame, Brat.

Here is one:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I hope Lockheed is banned from US fighter acquisition for a while, after both the F-22 and F-35 boondoggles, but when the F-22 can operate, it is the best air superiority fighter in the air. If you're bashing the TVC on the F-22, it's a reliability issue, not an operations issue and it is in short why the F-22 was picked as the American air superiority fighter over the YF-23.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I hope Lockheed is banned from US fighter acquisition for a while, after both the F-22 and F-35 boondoggles, but when the F-22 can operate, it is the best air superiority fighter in the air. If you're bashing the TVC on the F-22, it's a reliability issue, not an operations issue and it is in short why the F-22 was picked as the American air superiority fighter over the YF-23.

Well Inst, the F-22 is not a boondoggle, and it is specifically the threat for which the J-20 continues to be developed, fifth gen fighter aircraft offer a lot of performance. The issue as the Russians and Chinese are finding out is expense, they are very capable and very expensive. The reason the F-35 is "Raptor Light", and the reason the J-20 and T-50 development also fall into the mold of the F-35, they will be "good enough for government work".

The real issue here on the J-20 thread, is do the Chinese still consider the Raptor enough of an imminent threat to continue to "plow the money" into this project, it does appear that there has been a genuine hiatus of significant progress and or PR on this project????? 2003 and 2004 should have been flying by now, and the building of fences, and the relocation of aircraft out of the public limelight indicates that something has changed?? Developemental Problems????, lack of perceived threat????or lack of money, the economic downturn has the management very concerned! brat
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Listen, Brat, why don't you actually try and learn a few things? Go read some post mortems on f-22 program by actual serving officers in the US Air Force, Brat. You might be surprised to find that all rousing gung ho publicity feed to the eager uninformed not withstanding, f-22 is not considered by those actually tasked with figuring out how best to fulfill the real missions the Air Force needs to perform to have been a unmitigated success in its own right, nor did it fit comfortably into sustainable long term force structure of the Air Force. Brat. The US Air Force sold its soul for the F-22. In the end the F-22 as developed wasn't worth it's soul. But the spin machines sought avoid any admission of this 20 year mistake by crafting the story calculated for suckers like you to buy to shift the blame, Brat.

Here is one:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Mods, would you please move this off topic post to the F-22 thread, so that I might respond to this posters concerns????? thank you, brat

"Another important consideration has to do with specialization. Air to Air performance demands drove highly specialized requirements, with heavy emphasis on countering advanced airborne threats."

"The F-22 program embraced many leading edge technologies. It was the first operational air to air fighter to incorporate stealth, integrated avionics, thrust vectoring, and supercruise."

"In sum the F-22 performs "as designed" and for the most part "meets expectations". "It is a SUPERB air-to-air fighter whose stealth, advanced avionics, and maneuverability offer IMMENSE advantages in modern combat. The aircraft also offers "significant" air-to-ground capabilities."

These are direct quotes from the article written by Lt.Col Niemi, and tagged by a poster who calls himself ALAMO??? It appears that Col Niemi is complaining that the F-22 is "too good" or overkill, I did capitalize his classifying the F-22 "performing as designed", and qualifying it as a "SUPERB air-to-air fighter. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Air Force fighter jockeys do not agree with Lt. Col Niemi, and in fact are quite pleased to be flying the most capable and competent fighter aircraft in the world, "knowing" that when they strap their little pink butts in the cockpit, that they have an 8 to 1 advantage over the bad guys. So Chuck, in the interest of integrity, I will edit my former post to include Col. Niemi's name alongside yours sir. I have always reminded others on this forum that a true fifth gen fighter aircraft is very expensive, and high maintenance, that sir is the reason that it is quite unlikely to be duplicated, and will remain at the top of the of the fighter food chain! brat
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

... the vast majority of Air Force fighter jockeys ...are quite pleased to be flying the most capable and competent fighter aircraft in the world, "knowing" ...that they have an 8 to 1 advantage over the bad guys.

I have always reminded others on this forum that a true fifth gen fighter aircraft is very expensive, and high maintenance, that sir is the reason that it is quite unlikely to be duplicated, and will remain at the top of the of the fighter food chain! brat
I believe the biggest issue driving the F-22 perceived "problems" is that we produced far, far too few of them.

What was going to be a 1,600+ (or so) aircraft purchase (which is what the ROI was calculated on), dropped to 1,200, then to 800, then to 400 and ended up at 197.

So, yes, the cost per aircraft sky rocketed. That was not the builder's fault. That was the fault of the politicians and their appointees who turn around and try and blame it on the manufacturer. And yes, it is taking longer, with that amount of use, to find and correct all of the issues. And yes, the maintenance costs per aircraft also ratcheted up.

Finally...you simply are not going to be able to spread 197 aircraft around the globe if things ever really do hit the fan and in fact honest to gosh go in the crapper. The best thing we could do with the F-22 is to fund, purchase, build, and put into operation another 400 of them in any case.

But the 197 we have flying are still, far and away, the best air dominance fighter on earth.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

F-22 is "too good" or overkill,

Oh please, cut the infantile quibble. "Too good" is just a pitiful fanboy euphemism for "suboptimal blend of performance characteristics and need for actual need", which really means exactly the same for real adult purposes as "not good enough".
 
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