F-22 Raptor Thread

Brumby

Major
How the improved F-22 trains for future wars (with F-35s)

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As the Air Force's most advanced aircraft, the F-22 is in such high demand that Raptor pilots and crews are constantly deploying for training and wartime missions.

It’s no doubt that the Raptor has been put on a pedestal in the Air Force’s trophy case. Even though the service only has 186 in inventory, according to Air Combat Command, it’s likely the world will see more of it in months to come.

“The overarching picture of how we’re modernizing the F-22 is that we’re looking for capabilities out there that other assets in the entire [Defense Department] inventory cannot fill,” Maj. Justin Anhalt, an F-22 requirements officer and program element monitor, told Air Force Times on March 8.

“We’re very focused on advancing air-to-air threats — emerging air-to-air threats — that will challenge both the U.S. ability to gain and maintain air superiority, and our coalition partners and how we can help them out,” Anhalt said. Anhalt serves under ACC's plans and programs fighter requirements office at Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Virginia.

The aircraft was recently equipped with an Air Intercept Missile-9X sidewinder missile. While the weapon is no stranger to aircraft like the F-15C and the Navy’s F/A-18C, "similar to how the F-22 is a generation beyond the fighters that came before it, the 9X is a generation beyond the previous sidewinder missiles used before,” Air Force Lt. Col David Skalicky, commander of the 90th Fighter Squadron, recently said. On March 1, the 90th FS, out of Joint-Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, became the first combat-operational F-22 unit to equip the intercept missile.

“It's a huge advance in lethality for the F-22," Skalicky
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.

This shouldn’t overshadow new software features regularly developed for the aircraft. Officials said they are working more with transmitting LINK 16, a military tactical data exchange network, onto other U.S. or NATO aircraft, “feeding them our information, and making everyone better out there,” Anhalt said.

“To keep in mind, however, that’s a good focus up until the early 2020s, but then after that, our focus for modernization is how we can be a better fighting unit with the F-35,” he said.

And as threats, such as Russia and China, advance and develop their aircraft capabilities, keeping the F-22 Raptor fresh — along with the F-35 — is a top priority. Anhalt said now is the time to look at “how do we better look at integrating with the F-35 so we can better accomplish the mission.”

An ‘information vacuum’

It's an aircraft that can operate at exceptional altitudes, if necessary, and can hit supersonic speeds (beyond Mach 2, some which are classified). And it can fly at supersonic speeds
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— a characteristic known as supercruise. More importantly, it is an information-gathering workhorse in the sky.

Much more than just a fighter, “they are flying sensor-shooters,” said David Deptula, the dean of the Mitchell Institute of Aerospace Power Studies. “We will value them much more for their ability to penetrate and operate in contested airspace, collect information and then rapidly move that information back to the decision makers than perhaps their ability to shoot missiles or drop bombs,” the retired Air Force lieutenant general told Air Force Times.

And Deptula has been outspoken about this before.

“This has been manifest by the F-22 and its use [over] Syria today,” Deptula said, alluding to its work against the Islamic State group, which
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in the theater as using high-tech sensors.

“It’s been valued in Syria, not because it has shot down any enemy airplane, but because it is acting as an information vacuum cleaner and then taking that information and passing it to the rest of the force dramatically increasing its situational awareness,” he continued. “They’re acting as quarterbacks because of their information collection.”

Deptula said without more F-22s, the U.S.'s national security strategy is lacking. The numbers just scrape half of the Raptor’s original production line, which was intended to deliver 381 aircraft. The last F-22 the Air Force received was in 2012.

“We need to open up the production line,” Deptula said. And coincidentally, he’s not alone.

“A lot of us complained about this back when we decided we were going to be downsizing the F-22, and I think all of you would agree now that probably wasn’t a good idea,” Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, said at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Tuesday. “Now we’re down to 187 operational F-22s. All we hear about is what a great job they’re doing…I think we all know we don’t have enough F-22s,” he said, discussing the future of Air Force modernization.

With the Raptor in demand for operations in the Middle East, Europe and Pacific, lawmakers pushed Air Force generals on the exact cost of restarting the production line.

The original unit cost cap was $143 million. Including advanced upgrades and research and development, each plane
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.

Yet according to the an independent cost analysis, service leaders have estimated it would take billions more to restart F-22 production from contractor Lockheed Martin.

And the F-22 continuously receives upgrades, Anhalt said.

Rapere

Just weeks after North Korea's highly-contested claim that the country tested a hydrogen bomb, at least
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, Japan, in January for what defense officials said was a routine exercise for theater security operations. Last year, the aircraft deployed to Europe
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to help ease coalition partners' agony over recent provocations from Russia.

When the F-22 deploys for exercises, it is “rigorously tested” before it reaches U.S. counterparts, or even other Air Force units. But partners need to properly equipped, too.

Trial and error with new technologies takes about a year to three years to perfect, Air Combat Command said. But that could also change with whenever the F-35 will be ready.“We hand them, not only the new capability, but we with our operations group, the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron at Nellis [Air Force Base, Nevada], they develop the tactics that go along with these new capabilities, so once the combat units get this, they have the entire package of how to implement what we’re working on,” Anhalt said.

On Jan. 12, an F-35 unit out of Edwards Air Force Base, California, too made headway with
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, first launching it over the Pacific Sea Test Range, the base said.

Anhalt said that for F-22 and F-35 units near one another, for example, Tyndall Air Force Base, and Eglin Air Force Base, both in Florida, could fly "pretty regularly" with one another. Eglin hosts its main training schoolhouse for the F-35, which has been training pilots for the last four years.

The goal for the Air Force is to declare the F-35's initial operational capability between August and December 2016. Hill Air Force Base, Utah; Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada; and Luke Air Force Base, Arizona; are poised to receive the first F-35s in fiscal 2017.

Stealth technology makes the F-22 a revolutionary leap in aircraft capability for the U.S., which the F-35 also has, Anhalt said.

“If you don’t have [stealth], you’re not going to be in the fight,” he said, citing how U.S. adversaries might view the F-22 as opposed to other fighters like the F-15.

“You can take a fourth-gen fighter, you can give them advanced sensors, advanced weapons, they’re already maneuverable and capable, but if you don’t have that stealth piece of it, then it doesn’t get you to where you need to be to do this type of fight.”

It’s likely the Air Force will move forward with quick deployments, known as “Rapid Raptor” to quickly move a lot of jets “into an area without a lot of spin-up” and yet make its mark, Anhalt said.

Sending two F-22s to Europe, for example, is much more likely to make headlines than a handful of F-15s.

“It’s a big deal, because you have a tactical asset that also makes a strategic effect,” he said.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
How the improved F-22 trains for future wars (with F-35s)

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there ya go, the chorus is lining up behind the AFB, the truth is coming out, and we are down to 184 F-22's the singularly most capable, important aircraft in the world, and vital to our National Sovereignty, as well as that of others! Lets re-open that line gentlemen!
 

Brumby

Major
Saving Money on the F-22 Fighter Jet May Cost America a Hell of a Lot

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The F-15 Eagle has been the US Air Force's fourth-generation fighter jet for the last few decades and was due to be replaced by the new fifth-generation F-22 Raptor. If things proceeded according to script, those several hundred F-22 aircraft would then be replaced by a fleet of brand-new sixth-generation fighter jets after a few decades, and so on.

But instead of continuing to hold up its end in the battle for the future of humanity, the Soviet Union collapsed 25 years ago, ending the Cold War. Meanwhile, the US eventually found itself hip-deep in ugly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that carried with them approximately zero likelihood of slugging it out head-to-head with a top-flight Russian or Chinese fighter.

So, in 2009, after years of criticism directed at the F-22 for being a shockingly expensive aircraft suited to a Cold War threat that had disappeared decades ago, then–Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and newly elected President Barack Obama decided to cap production at 187 aircraft. In 2012, production was shut down.

Unfortunately, a mere two years after the last F-22 rolled off the line, Russia executed the Great Crimean Heist in Ukraine and basically rebooted the Cold War. Meanwhile, China tried shoplifting the majority of the South China Sea and threatened to shoot anyone who had a problem with it. All of a sudden, the Pentagon is looking around and wishing it had a lot more top-notch fighter jets.

The Air Force's newest jet, the F-35, is still being hammered in the press. The F-35 was never built or intended to be a pure air superiority fighter; it's a multi-role aircraft that can shoot down other planes, but it doesn't specialize in it.

This all raised a question — why not turn the F-22 production line back on and start making more? The answer is, because that's one of those ideas that sounds perfectly doable in theory, but really sucks in practice. When a production line for something like the F-22 is shut down, it's shut down for good. For instance, even though the US built five Space Shuttles, deciding later to build a new one would have meant starting from scratch because shutdown involved scrapping tools, shredding documentation, and letting go of highly skilled workers.

When production of the F-22 was put on hold, lawmakers did tell the Pentagon to save as much of the stuff as they could in case the US decided it wanted more of them, though there are
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that everything is not nearly as well preserved as advertised. Regardless, the idea that the line could be restarted isn't beyond the realm of the possible.

Lockheed Martin, the maker of the F-22, swears that it could get the production line up and running for a mere $200 million — though it doesn't say how much producing planes would cost. RAND
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that restarting the line would cost about $560 million. That is a lot more. RAND also says that when you throw in the cost of 75 new aircraft, the total cost would be a cool $17 billion. That is really a lot more.

Roughly speaking, according to RAND, the first F-22 jets to come off the production line could run a bit shy of $200 million (in 2016 dollars) in "unit flyaway cost," which is basically the price of the plane itself and a portion of the tooling and machinery needed to make that plane. If production hadn't ever been shut down, however, those 75 jets would have cost roughly $150 million a pop, using the same measure.

Right now, the Air Force is saying that they're totally over the F-22 and want to focus on the new hotness, a sixth-generation replacement with the astonishingly bland name of Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter. It was concerns about cost that put the F-22 in hot water to begin with, and a newer jet with even fancier stuff is not likely to be cheaper. Nevertheless, engineer and scientist types are getting all excited about a host of new technologies that they hope to see in a sixth-generation Fighter Jet of Tomorrow. Hypersonic speed that makes it impossible for air defenses to intercept, on-board lasers to fry incoming missiles —really neat and probably enormously expensive stuff.

It's reasonable to assume that all those new bells and whistles will probably cost a fortune and end up pushing deployment of a sixth-generation fighter closer to 2030. If that's the case, the only way the US will have enough aircraft to meet demands is by revamping the fleet of increasingly elderly fourth-generation aircraft like the F-15, which could be 60 years old by the time a new replacement hits the skies.

The Air Force is aware of this potential pitfall. During a modernization
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held by the Senate Armed Services Committee, Lieutenant General James M. Holmes responded to these concerns, stating that, along with brand-new designs, the Air Force would be looking at adapting existing jets and doesn't plan to include any major new technological developments in its next fighter. This return to evolutionary weapons development, rather than hunting for revolutionary breakthroughs, has already been seen in the Air Force's new bomber, the
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, and the Navy's Virginia-class submarine.

Related:
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Folks have learned a great deal about stealth and made vast improvements in electronics since the F-22 was being designed back in the 1990s. So, if the US is thinking about restarting F-22 production, it couldn't hurt to spend a couple years upgrading the electronics, avionics, and stealthy bits. (The precedent for this was Ronald Reagan's restart of production of the B-1 bomber as the upgraded B-1B.)

This all sounds like a pretty reasonable deal: Upgrade the plane using the benefit of experience and new technology, write off a lot of the previous costs of the airplane to drive down the new sticker price, and voila! A brand-new top-end fighter jet to counter advanced Russian and Chinese jets.

However, if the Air Force restarted F-22 production or went to an upgraded F-22, it would almost certainly suck all the available funding away from development of a true sixth-generation fighter. And the longer the sixth-generation jet takes to produce, the more time enemy counter-stealth technology will have to erode the F-22's stealth advantage.

So the Air Force has three options: It can keep its ancient F-15s in the air a while longer with some upgrades until a brand-new replacement jet comes online. It can restart production of the existing F-22 to fill the gap until the next plane is ready. Or it can start production of an upgraded F-22.

And all of those alternatives suck in their own special ways.

Restarting the F-22 production line or upgrading it will delay the next-generation fighter, and in a world where stealth will be a less and less dominant technology, delaying the sixth-generation fighter is a lousy idea. But trying to focus on getting a new sixth-generation fighter and putting the F-22 to bed means the US could find itself at a severe disadvantage, pitting revamped but still ancient F-15s against newer, more modern Russian and Chinese jets for the next two decades.

At the margins, there may be ways to combine capabilities of aircraft like the F-35 and F-15 to make the F-15 more effective and make up for some of the shortfalls against modern Russian and Chinese aircraft, but that's a Band-Aid, not a proper solution.
Another article on whether restarting the F-22 program is a good idea or not. I do have some broad problems with some assumptions being asserted which in my view are unsubstantiated. First is the criticality of the 6th generation program. So far the USAF has no idea what would constitute key attributes but yet the idea that it is nevertheless critical defies basic logic. Second is the presupposition that counter stealth will significantly alter the dynamics of fifth generation capabilities. That simply has limited truth values and highly debatable.

My personal view is to go for an upgraded F-22 and push back the 6th gen. program. Currently the 6th gen is just simply spending money for the military complex. The USAF needs to address a strategic gap with the F-22 shortfall.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Saving Money on the F-22 Fighter Jet May Cost America a Hell of a Lot

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Another article on whether restarting the F-22 program is a good idea or not. I do have some broad problems with some assumptions being asserted which in my view are unsubstantiated. First is the criticality of the 6th generation program. So far the USAF has no idea what would constitute key attributes but yet the idea that it is nevertheless critical defies basic logic. Second is the presupposition that counter stealth will significantly alter the dynamics of fifth generation capabilities. That simply has limited truth values and highly debatable.

My personal view is to go for an upgraded F-22 and push back the 6th gen. program. Currently the 6th gen is just simply spending money for the military complex. The USAF needs to address a strategic gap with the F-22 shortfall.

Exactly, and many in the Air Force agree that capping Raptor production was "insane", not restarting the Raptor line for Lockheed's stated price is criminal, Rob Weiss of the the Skunk Works stated the sixth gen may well be three decades in the future---2045, and that there is NO consensus on what sixth gen should be, but that it is critical that F-22 and F-35 be upgraded.

The Raptor is critical to meet the budding 5th gen threat of our near peers, LRSB and Sixth Gen should be rolled back in light of this much more critical need. Hopefully a new US President with a more mature concern for our National Defense will reopen this discussion and proceed accordingly.
 

Brumby

Major
Exactly, and many in the Air Force agree that capping Raptor production was "insane", not restarting the Raptor line for Lockheed's stated price is criminal, Rob Weiss of the the Skunk Works stated the sixth gen may well be three decades in the future---2045, and that there is NO consensus on what sixth gen should be, but that it is critical that F-22 and F-35 be upgraded.

The Raptor is critical to meet the budding 5th gen threat of our near peers, LRSB and Sixth Gen should be rolled back in light of this much more critical need. Hopefully a new US President with a more mature concern for our National Defense will reopen this discussion and proceed accordingly.

The role of a new administration is to direct the country back on a path of economic prosperity by having sensible economic policies that foster growth. It is the role of the USAF leadership to put together a strategic pathway with an alignment of air force spending programs that would address specific security needs. As such, it is the role of the USAF leadership to put together a strong case for the new president to consider because there are other competing programs from a fixed spending pool. The hope is that this spending pool will be enlarged by a new administration on the back of a stronger economy. The problem today as I see it with the USAF leadership is in the incoherency in terms of thought process in moving forward. Fundamentally to this is the failure in recognising the source for the truncation of the original F-22 and the B-2 program. Aside from the post cold war attitude towards big ticket items, the big aversion was in the cost runaway in high tech programs like the F-22. Successive new generation programs will cost much more than the previous generation because it is not simply a unit replacement but a capability expansion from prior generation. If the country cannot afford a 5th gen type programs like the F-22, what rationale exist that a 6th generation program will be affordable? The argument is that the country cannot afford to re-start the F-22 program because of cost, but somehow it can afford a 6th generation program is simply delusional. There needs to be a debate about a 5 plus generation platform vs a 6th generation in terms of need, timeline and affordability matrix. I am not seeing it in the conversations other than we need to start working on a 6th gen. program and funding for it must be protected. That is a one dimensional thinking.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
The role of a new administration is to direct the country back on a path of economic prosperity by having sensible economic policies that foster growth. It is the role of the USAF leadership to put together a strategic pathway with an alignment of air force spending programs that would address specific security needs. As such, it is the role of the USAF leadership to put together a strong case for the new president to consider because there are other competing programs from a fixed spending pool. The hope is that this spending pool will be enlarged by a new administration on the back of a stronger economy. The problem today as I see it with the USAF leadership is in the incoherency in terms of thought process in moving forward. Fundamentally to this is the failure in recognising the source for the truncation of the original F-22 and the B-2 program. Aside from the post cold war attitude towards big ticket items, the big aversion was in the cost runaway in high tech programs like the F-22. Successive new generation programs will cost much more than the previous generation because it is not simply a unit replacement but a capability expansion from prior generation. If the country cannot afford a 5th gen type programs like the F-22, what rationale exist that a 6th generation program will be affordable? The argument is that the country cannot afford to re-start the F-22 program because of cost, but somehow it can afford a 6th generation program is simply delusional. There needs to be a debate about a 5 plus generation platform vs a 6th generation in terms of need, timeline and affordability matrix. I am not seeing it in the conversations other than we need to start working on a 6th gen. program and funding for it must be protected. That is a one dimensional thinking.

Roger that, the USAF has lost its heart and soul, although Hawk Carlisle continues to exemplify the quality and type of leadership that could restore us to strategic coherency. I have long made the argument that it was irresponsible to attempt to define 6th gen, before we had plumbed the depths of the 5th gen revolution with a 5.5 aircraft.

I would have no objections to the resurrection of the YF-23, in fact LochMart's sixth gen bares a striking resemblance to the YF-23, Heh, Heh!
 
it's pulled from the Flanker Thread, from the response to my off-topic question there:
... I don't think there is a sense of urgency to equip it because simulation of one F-22 against 3 HMCS F-16 still shows that the F-22 will prevail. ...

... link to this simulation please:

EDIT
now I noticed even the claim of
"Indeed, a single Raptor during one of its first training sorties was able to kill eight
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in a mock air-to-air engagement, well before they could see it." I mean, is this official?? (I found it inside of
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and I wonder what "kill" would actually mean??
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Last edited:

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Kill ratio presumably but enough subjective i don' t think very reliable. others parameters to consider really.

And with comparison btw fighters you will always have different opinions not all ofc but always some, same for Tanks and obviously each nationals of a country will always say that their equipment is the best...

For F-22/Su-35S i have also read :
Long Range combat : normaly F-22 win but only if he detect very fast her target coz radar emission are very important and it is localised.
Medium-range : Su-35S better at less advantaged with her IRST
Dogfight : F-22 win mainly with her more fast supercruise speed get more energy vs T-50 /1st engines also possible but match very closed with true rockets up to 350 m/sec ! :eek:

Very different conclusions with the article you have posted but in general i see same conclusions as your article posted, but a consensus for actualy only F-22 can beat Su-35S very possible also after Typhoon Tr 3 with new AESA and METEOR in more and only T-50 can beat F-22 but F-22 more stealth.
 
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Brumby

Major
it's pulled from the Flanker Thread, from the response to my off-topic question there:


... link to this simulation please:

EDIT
now I noticed even the claim of
"Indeed, a single Raptor during one of its first training sorties was able to kill eight
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in a mock air-to-air engagement, well before they could see it." I mean, is this official?? (I found it inside of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and I wonder what "kill" would actually mean??
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The claim was found in an aviationist article not unlike the one that you quoted. There is no actual reference to specific simulation other than it was based on a simulation and so one would have to view such claims with a degree of scepticism depending on your own personal leaning on the F-22's capabilities. There will never be anything official other than actual combat statistics.
 
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