F-22 Raptor Thread

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member

That would be the one. Thank you.

The key is whether or not they get their money next year.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Rumors are what happened at Tyndall has increased the sense of urgency for the NGAD. We'll see. Concern only goes so far. Money actually makes things happen. Should the funding go higher than what was projected, then the sense of urgency overcame the resistance to spending more, faster.
 
That would be the one. Thank you.

The key is whether or not they get their money next year.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Rumors are what happened at Tyndall has increased the sense of urgency for the NGAD. We'll see. Concern only goes so far. Money actually makes things happen. Should the funding go higher than what was projected, then the sense of urgency overcame the resistance to spending more, faster.
noted 'signals' like Nov 2, 2018
Apr 13, 2018
people don't read what I post
Bolton: National debt ‘threat to the society,’ forcing DoD spending to ‘flatten out’
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so let's wait and see if NGAD is vapor or not
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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A 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor touches down at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. The first six Raptors arrived to their temporary home at Eglin from Tyndall Air Force Base. This move is part of mission shift by the Air Force as Hurricane Michael recovery efforts continue at Tyndall. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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A maintenance Airman marshals in a 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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A maintainer and pilot talk about their 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptors taxi at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20 2018. (U.S. Air Force photos/Samuel King Jr.)

 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
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A 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor touches down at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. The first six Raptors arrived to their temporary home at Eglin from Tyndall Air Force Base. This move is part of mission shift by the Air Force as Hurricane Michael recovery efforts continue at Tyndall. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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A maintenance Airman marshals in a 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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A maintainer and pilot talk about their 325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptor at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20. 2018. (U.S. Air Force photo/Samuel King Jr.)

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325th Fighter Wing F-22A Raptors taxi at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Nov. 20 2018. (U.S. Air Force photos/Samuel King Jr.)

Nice bd, thank you!
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Actually they can't, the Raptor is able to work its magic with supercruise up to Mach 1.8, the Raptor has excellent range, and yes it is the instrument of choice for a deep strike fighter as it's speed and L/O are the best...

there are faster fighters, but they are throwing a radar/IR return the size of a "steel mill"! the Raptor is quiet in respect to RCS and IR in comparison, and its range is much better than fighter with Reheat at Mach 2+...

but we are the J-20 thread, LOL, so the J-20 would stack up fairly well with the Raptor, but is anxiously awaiting those WS-15s and their projected supercruise....
1.When you launch munitions, supercruise don't matter. Matters speed and altitude right now, even if you got them just to launch your payload. Speed matters in getting in and out alive.
With Mig-31 around we always forget, what F-15 family are by far the fastest air superiority fighters(and bombers, if we are talking about E). Flankers are second best, but they are still comfortably ahead of any competition.(ironically, though, pure bomber flanker is speed-limited, too).
2.Raptor range isn't special even by american standarts(which aren't high in terms of range to begin with), it is just a super hungry fuel burner, with a very average fuel fraction(which has dropped starkly between yf-22 and f/a-22).
Typically, american fighters solve it through air refuelling, but stealthy supercruiser has its own problems with this approach.
It wasn't a problem over Europe. It is, over the Pacific.
Last: you can just look at numbers. Yes, full reheat ain't effective, but it only matters for the same amount of fuel. On the side note, i am really looking forward to seeing how far a supercruising su-57 can fly.
3.instrument of choice for a deep strike fighter is the f-35, not the f-22.
Because apart from being limited to SDBs, raptor also has problems with targeting land targets on its own. It just wasn't created to do it,and has no instruments onboard: just a delivery truck(strictly speaking, there is a radar in a2g mode, but it has ots limitations and it won't be stealthy). But if you are just a delivery truck - always remember about smart munitions being your direct competitor. ALCMs of all sorts, flying from both 4th and 5th gens.
Btw, J-20, on the other hand, can do it just fine: it actually has the relevant sensor in the stealthy configuration.
4.if we are talking about throwing munitions as far as possible, signature doesn't matter as much: you simply don't intend to let target to shoot at you, at all.
Even warning a target becomes less of an issue, since it is strange to attack something moving this way. There are far less roundabout ways to do it.
5.there are reasons why, according to current plans, f-15 family will essentially outlive f-22 in service. That's one of them. ATF is a marvel, but it's a marvellous one trick pony.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
1.When you launch munitions, supercruise don't matter. Matters speed and altitude right now, even if you got them just to launch your payload. Speed matters in getting in and out alive
This was the point I was trying to make with the original statement. That through the mission performance of air superiority. F22 does a pretty good job lobbing SDB and JDAMS. If the J20 also has performance on par with the Raptor it would do just as well.
You however then tried to twist that.
With Mig-31 around we always forget, what F-15 family are by far the fastest air superiority fighters(and bombers, if we are talking about E). Flankers are second best, but they are still comfortably ahead of any competition.(ironically, though, pure bomber flanker is speed-limited, too
All serving fifth gen fighters do not have unclassified top speed or performance figures. Everything is an estimate or approved release.
Top speed of Raptor is estimated to be mach 2.25 but is likely faster.
F15E is said to be Mach 2.5+
But you farther have to consider the weight and drag figures.
F22 with standard weapons load is low drag because by showing it's weapons internally it moved them from air stream of the fighter.
Unless you are talking about one of the Boeing offered Refits or Silent Eagles F15 doesn't do that. More does flanker. Adding weapons to the exterior adds weight but also subtracts lift surface this in turn reduces performance. A absolutely clean F15E is a proverbial rocket ship a loaded one is slower heavier and has less speed and agility.
When we see Mig29 and Su27 performing the crazy maneuvers and displays how often is it with a full weapon load and drop tanks? Very rarely. The pure bomber Flanker model? It added drag with the changes to the cockpit and nose. This added weight as well.
2.Raptor range isn't special even by american standarts(which aren't high in terms of range to begin with), it is just a super hungry fuel burner, with a very average fuel fraction(which has dropped starkly between yf-22 and f/a-22).
Which is fine.
Yes if you are flying at subsonic you are more fuel efficient than at super cruise but both are far more fuel efficient than afterburner.
Most fighters don't fly more than a few minutes in the super sonic regime as is despite service lives in the hundreds of thousands of hours. YF22 Was a hotrod compared to the mission ready F22. So of course she gave up something for mission equipment.
Typically, american fighters solve it through air refuelling, but stealthy supercruiser has its own problems with this approach.
It wasn't a problem over Europe. It is, over the Pacific
this is miss leading. It's based on the assumption of the USSR as a European nation in the cold war. It's true Russia is European it's also the largest Asian country by land mass. With the cast step of Siberia being the Russian Army's play ground. In the event of a hot war in the bad old days American fighter aircraft would to punch into that play ground, hunt Russian bombers and interceptor.
What changed was the more advanced ground to air missile systems with very long ranges able to seek out and kill tankers, AEW and older bombers. The older SAM systems were a land mine you had to step on it to set it off. These new ones like the S400 are a sniper nest. They can pick off tankers before they can do any good.
The problem is not unique to the F22 but all fighters as unless you try and build a fighter the size of a bomber ( see Dale Brown novels on that) your always going to need a tanker and tankers are either airliners or Transports that are visible as all Hell to any radar system mated to a surface to air missile.

J20 and SU57 are not going to have huge range advantages either. Despite the hype they are not much larger than Raptor and make there own sacrifices. The SU57 bomb bay approach for example eats into space for fuel tanks.
3.instrument of choice for a deep strike fighter is the f-35, not the f-22.
Because apart from being limited to SDBs, raptor also has problems with targeting land targets on its own. It just wasn't created to do it,and has no instruments onboard: just a delivery truck(strictly speaking, there is a radar in a2g mode, but it has ots limitations and it won't be stealthy).
Correct. But again we were talking secondary role not primary.
And Raptor can carry JDAM. If the Raptor driver has gone to A2G mode he is likely already close to his target anyway. If the target doesn't know he's there now... they will very soon.
5.there are reasons why, according to current plans, f-15 family will essentially outlive f-22 in service. That's one of them. ATF is a marvel, but it's a marvellous one trick pony.
Wrong but also right
USAF planing has F22 in service into the 2060s F15 survived in the USAF because the end of production meant that they didn't have the numbers to replace the 700+ F15C-D in US service. F15E is slated to be dropped from service eventually by F35A.
For the U.S. NGAD is the F22 re-due to finally phase out F15.
USAF F15 fleet in previous years was being looked at to retired early from the USAF. In all likelihood F15 will not serve past the 2040s for the USAF.
Abroad it is a different story F15 buys have continued to this day. But based off the E air frame. As such yes they will likely continue into the 2060s but that's like the Mig21. Still in service but is it really?

Raptor is not a one trick pony it does duel role. There is slated to be a F22 midlife program in 2024 before the start of NGAD. I would be surprised if it merged with NGAD for a F22C. Adding sensors from F35 and variable sycle engines into Raptors increasing range by 30-40%. The main solution for range though is not on the Raptor or lightning.
Tanking and AEW are still issues for range and support though across the Pacific.
But AEW doesn't need a crew. The USAF was for a time looking into removing the staff of E3 save for the flight crew. It seems likely that we may end up with unmanned systems for that mission using data links to communicate with fighters And American Fifth gens are in formation virtual AEW.

Tanking is the next problem yet the Navy recently started a unmanned tanker.
One could see some of these concept UCAVs being redesigned to serve as flying radars well others get booms.
There are studies already looking into low observable tankers and transports as well aimed for the 2030s. With the B21 around the corner there would also be an aircraft with low observable characteristics that could be converted.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Top speed of Raptor is estimated to be mach 2.25 but is likely faster.
With fixed inlets?
Basic yf-22 was mach 2.6 capable, but this was dropped.
No amount of engine power will give you mach 2+ performance this way.
YF22 Was a hotrod compared to the mission ready F22. So of course she gave up something for mission equipment.
As far as i understand, the great changes between yf-22 and f-22 were in part driven by desire to increase her supercruise speeds to widow levels(i.e. basically to the point where normal 4th gen flies normally on full reheat), even at the cost of the fuel fraction.
Remember, when this decision was taken, China wasn't a threat really.
With the cast step of Siberia being the Russian Army's play ground. In the event of a hot war in the bad old days American fighter aircraft would to punch into that play ground, hunt Russian bombers and interceptor.
Into Siberia? Look at the map. No american fighter is going to be flying here, unless you are suddenly ressurecting b-1r.
J20 and SU57 are not going to have huge range advantages either. Despite the hype they are not much larger than Raptor and make there own sacrifices. The SU57 bomb bay approach for example eats into space for fuel tanks.
It isn't about the size, it's about how the space is used and allocated. To see how inefficient is f-22 at carrying fuel, you don't have to go any further than the f-35(another greedy fuel burner, btw. But this boy has lots of fuel to burn). And, while su-57 is comparable in size(as is her weapon bay, by volume) - her engines aren't even in her plane-wing structure. As a result, this structure has incredible useful volume. Sukhoi's Integral layout at its best.
USAF planing has F22 in service into the 2060s F15 survived in the USAF because the end of production meant that they didn't have the numbers to replace the 700+ F15C-D in US service. F15E is slated to be dropped from service eventually by F35A.
Current plan, if i understanf correcly:
F-22 will begin phase out as early as 2042, by 2044 or 46 they will be gone. F-15c - same, but from 2046 on. Both to be replaced by new platform(which shall be ready around 2037).
Raptor is not a one trick pony it does duel role.
It's "dual role"(with sdb) tricked no one. Dual role plane is the f-35.
Adding weapons to the exterior adds weight but also subtracts lift surface this in turn reduces performance. A absolutely clean F15E is a proverbial rocket ship a loaded one is slower heavier and has less speed and agility.
When we see Mig29 and Su27 performing the crazy maneuvers and displays how often is it with a full weapon load and drop tanks? Very rarely. The pure bomber Flanker model? It added drag with the changes to the cockpit and nose. This added weight as well.
It shall be understood, though, what penalties for carrying 5th gen-level loads aren't great for heavy fighters - they all are essentially "low drag" ones.
As for the su-34 - it has fixed inlets, so its max speed is hard-capped in the same way as it is for the f-22.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
With fixed inlets?
Basic yf-22 was mach 2.6 capable, but this was dropped.
No amount of engine power will give you mach 2+ performance this way
Again estimates and approved public release. Unless you happen to have a security clearance which would be revoked by giving away such data, that is all we have on the speed of the Raptor. The F119 engines are monsters on there power and were designed for high supersonic speed. To farther assist in maintaining proper air flow the intakes have overflow doors along the dorsal side spilling out extra air flow.
As far as i understand, the great changes between yf-22 and f-22 were in part driven by desire to increase her supercruise speeds to widow levels(i.e. basically to the point where normal 4th gen flies normally on full reheat), even at the cost of the fuel fraction.
Remember, when this decision was taken, China wasn't a threat really.
YF22 and YF23 were domonstarors not mission capable fighters there were many changes made to make raptor mission ready. Besides even if part of those were to increase super cruise, is that supposed to count against it somehow? I mean if you can fly at mach 1.8 without reheat pissing fuel behind you, you are flying at mach 1.8 with a smaller IR signature. That's an advantage. And if you need it raptor does have reheat so does lightning. That means that if they need a dash they have the dash. Super cruise is endurance running reheat is a dash.
It isn't about the size, it's about how the space is used and allocated. To see how inefficient is f-22 at carrying fue
Differences in thinking old chum.
F15 combat radius and fourth gens are listed with external drop tanks.
F22 is listed with out for about 450nmi. If you add external tanks raptor is a longer range fighter but you sacrifice stealth.
Raptor vs SU57? 2000kg of fuel difference in favor of Pakfa... congratulations. It's also a third of a meter wider and a meter longer.... I wonder does that mean I don't know... More room for more fuel?
you don't have to go any further than the f-35(another greedy fuel burner, btw. But this boy has lots of fuel to burn).
Single engine the F135 derived from the F119, smaller internal weapons load for less weight, and then comes the F35B. Which factors in as the lift fan or lack thereof changes the weight and fuel game. If it's a B it has shorter range then an A or an C. Because the lift fan is heavy and the space taken up by it is used the Sand C for additional fuel.
C has more fuel then A because larger wing to store it.
Current plan, if i understanf correcly:
F-22 will begin phase out as early as 2042, by 2044 or 46 they will be gone. F-15c - same, but from 2046 on. Both to be replaced by new platform(which shall be ready around 2037).
You are mistaken.
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2060 is end of service. 2037 is planed IOC for sixth gens.
2046 is more likely end of service for F15 and F/A18 super hornets.
It's "dual role"(with sdb) tricked no one. Dual role plane is the f-35.
Sorry no. Dual role for F22
Omni role for F35. It was designed for everything but cargo and ranking.
It shall be understood, though, what penalties for carrying 5th gen-level loads aren't great for heavy fighters - they all are essentially "low drag" ones.
As for the su-34 - it has fixed inlets, so its max speed is hard-capped in the same way as it is for the f-22.
By your decree, you majesty... Bull.
SU34 is hampered because they bolted a Bombers cockpit onto a fighters body. F22 may have fixed inlets but the engines it uses were designed for that. Those used on Su34 were not. They were designed for a Flanker.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Again estimates and approved public release. Unless you happen to have a security clearance which would be revoked by giving away such data, that is all we have on the speed of the Raptor. The F119 engines are monsters on there power and were designed for high supersonic speed. To farther assist in maintaining proper air flow the intakes have overflow doors along the dorsal side spilling out extra air flow.

YF22 and YF23 were domonstarors not mission capable fighters there were many changes made to make raptor mission ready. Besides even if part of those were to increase super cruise, is that supposed to count against it somehow? I mean if you can fly at mach 1.8 without reheat pissing fuel behind you, you are flying at mach 1.8 with a smaller IR signature. That's an advantage. And if you need it raptor does have reheat so does lightning. That means that if they need a dash they have the dash. Super cruise is endurance running reheat is a dash.

Differences in thinking old chum.
F15 combat radius and fourth gens are listed with external drop tanks.
F22 is listed with out for about 450nmi. If you add external tanks raptor is a longer range fighter but you sacrifice stealth.
Raptor vs SU57? 2000kg of fuel difference in favor of Pakfa... congratulations. It's also a third of a meter wider and a meter longer.... I wonder does that mean I don't know... More room for more fuel?

Single engine the F135 derived from the F119, smaller internal weapons load for less weight, and then comes the F35B. Which factors in as the lift fan or lack thereof changes the weight and fuel game. If it's a B it has shorter range then an A or an C. Because the lift fan is heavy and the space taken up by it is used the Sand C for additional fuel.
C has more fuel then A because larger wing to store it.

You are mistaken.
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2060 is end of service. 2037 is planed IOC for sixth gens.
2046 is more likely end of service for F15 and F/A18 super hornets.

Sorry no. Dual role for F22
Omni role for F35. It was designed for everything but cargo and ranking.

By your decree, you majesty... Bull.
SU34 is hampered because they bolted a Bombers cockpit onto a fighters body. F22 may have fixed inlets but the engines it uses were designed for that. Those used on Su34 were not. They were designed for a Flanker.

Yep, nice rebuttal Terran, and all true, lots of presupposed weakness for the Raptor, but with 4 660 Gallon drop tanks, it will go a long way, I don't know if it will supercruise with drop tanks, but I wouldn't be surprised, it is the cleanest of all the big 5th gens, as evidenced by its high Mach 1.8 supercruise,,, so no the F-22 won't do everything, but its still at the top of the heap, 4th Gen, 5th Gen,, who knows if they move it up to 6th Gen, but we know a whole lot more about supercruise, drag reduction, and very efficient powerplants than we did in 1986??

So the Raptor is still the bird to beat.....
 
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