Exported J-7

POKL said:

Thank you very much for sharing these fine pictures. On a more practical note – did PAF ‘Skybolts’ or other J 7 / F 7 variants operated by the PAF see action and if so could you kindly provide some details?

Click to expand...

I haven't found any record of PAF's F-7s being part of any actual engagement. The last engagement, i can remember was in 2008 when two 'armed' formations made up of IAF's MKIs and Mirage-2000s intruded into Pakistan's airspace and were intercepted and escorted back to the Indian airspace, by mixed formations of F-16s, F-7P/PGs and Mirage-III-ROSE aircrafts.

So the Pakistani F 7 did not fire in anger but were involved in intercepting foreign, mostly Indian aircraft. If I remember correctly during the Kargil Crises (the term war would not be out of place) the F 7 had on more than one occasion ‘mixed’ with Indian aircraft which sometimes involved plenty of vigorous manoeuvring to gain advantage and was the closest thing to actual air combat except no shots were fired by either side (in air to air that is).

In addition please forgive my ignorance but over which mountain range are the F 7 pictured?

Aeronaut said:

PAF's Skybolts.

Click to expand...

I just worry that they'll get the aircraft burnt!

POKL said:

So the Pakistani F 7 did not fire in anger but were involved in intercepting foreign, mostly Indian aircraft. If I remember correctly during the Kargil Crises (the term war would not be out of place) the F 7 had on more than one occasion ‘mixed’ with Indian aircraft which sometimes involved plenty of vigorous manoeuvring to gain advantage and was the closest thing to actual air combat except no shots were fired by either side (in air to air that is).

Click to expand...

That is correct. Its a kind of posturing.

In addition please forgive my ignorance but over which mountain range are the F 7 pictured?

Click to expand...

Karakoram Ranges.

Well there is still a market for simple point defense interceptors like the F-5E and its derivatives. Considering the F-5 is no longer in production and the Mig-21 is also not in production the market is ceded to China and the FTC-2000G.


I place the discussion out there that if the F-5E was put back on the market with an effective radar, none of the complex avionics (but off the shelf proven components) and logistics support it would still find buyers. So many fanboys are so caught up with stealth, AESA radars, supercruise and long range BVR performance that we miss the fact that for many 3rd and 2nd tier air forces that it just is not a requirement.

If your main local threat is another 2nd or 3rd tier air force or you need the ability to look over airspace violations then FTC-2000G is good enough for the job. Granted it is not meant to be the primary fighter in your air force or should it be the backbone of the fighter fleet. But it will serve its purpose.
The FTC-2000G is a small aircraft, however the JAS39 is even smaller. The Gripen does has a huge edge in thrust, avionics, weapon systems and airframe design.


Now the Gripen is actively being targeted for F-5E replacement by SAAB. The Gripen has already achieved the F-5 replacement market with Thailand, Brazil and Switzerland. They are targeting now marketing Malaysia and Indonesia where both of them already floating intentions in the market for F-5 replacement.

So with FTC-2000G and F-5 capabilities are similar (F-5 still better), it's then logical for Gripen to be marketed for MIG-21 replacement also. This will make it much harder for FTC-2000 (or the more capable JF-17/FC-1) to compete for Mig-21 replacement with customers that have a budget for Gripen acquisition.


Any thoughts?

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

Miragedriver said:

So with FTC-2000G and F-5 capabilities are similar (F-5 still better), it's then logical for Gripen to be marketed for MIG-21 replacement also. This will make it much harder for FTC-2000 (or the more capable JF-17/FC-1) to compete for Mig-21 replacement with customers that have a budget for Gripen acquisition.

Click to expand...

Gripen is too expensive to be marketed for Mig-21 replacement . Countries replacing F-5 with Gripen already had Western equipment and financially are much better off then usually poor countries stuck with Mig-21s and J-7s .

thunderchief said:

Gripen is too expensive to be marketed for Mig-21 replacement . Countries replacing F-5 with Gripen already had Western equipment and financially are much better off then usually poor countries stuck with Mig-21s and J-7s .

Click to expand...

Exactly! It will only be nations with Gripen budgets and not Jf-17, or cheaper yet FTC-2000G.

I really want to see the New naval Gripen that Brazil has contracted/budgeted for.

It is quite possible that many countries owning older Mig-21/J-7 will not replace them with anything. They could simply outsource basic air policing to richer and more powerful neighbors or alliances . Others will severely limit their airforces to a couple of 4th gen planes (most likely used Mig-29s , they are dirt cheap these days) for token air space sovereignty .

Therefore, potential market for JF-17 , FTC-2000G etc maybe much smaller then originally estimated. We must remember that Mig-21 , no matter how much obsolete is these days, was considered as top of the line fighter in its heyday . I'm afraid that JF-17 or FTC-2000G would never achieve such fame in 21 st century .

thunderchief said:

...... Others will severely limit their airforces to a couple of 4th gen planes (most likely used Mig-29s , they are dirt cheap these days) for token air space sovereignty .......

Click to expand...

Not to get too far off topic on this, but what is functioning MiG-29 going for these days? Prior of course to any SMT overhaul. Just the aircraft and say parts and support equipment.

Miragedriver said:

Not to get too far off topic on this, but what is functioning MiG-29 going for these days? Prior of course to any SMT overhaul. Just the aircraft and say parts and support equipment.

Click to expand...

Hard to tell, I know Hungary was selling their for as little as $2-3 million, but that was without support and spares . You would still have to go to Russians and negotiate overhaul , and if you do that SMT upgrade would be logical step .