Dreadnaught (Texas) vs. Most Modern (Iowa) Battleships

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Garzke & Dulin believed this nine hits :) the second sentence of p. 46:
"In only seven minutes of radar-directed fire, the Washington hit the Kirishima with nine out of seventy-five 16-inch shells and about forty 5-inch shells, wrecking her steering gear and setting the topside aflame."

as for the steering gear part: as we now know, the rudder of Kirishima took a direct hit!
(it's #20 in
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For this battles around Guadalcanal don't forget very good Japanese Heavy Cruiser with also her redoubtable 610 mm torpedoe " Long lance " DD have also.
Obviously for radars US as British had an advantage, Japan begin have radars in 1943 but Japanese excellent in night combat.
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I can' t resist for a comparison for this duel of Titans:)

The Montana class battleships were going to have the following characteristics:

Displacement: 72,000 tons full load
Length: 924 ft.
Beam: 121 feet (I think too big for the Panama Canal)
Draft: 36 feet
Speed: 30 knots
Crew: 2,800 (As Flagship)
Armament:
12 x 16-inch/50 cal guns (4 turrets x 3)
20 x 5-inch/54 cal guns (10 x 2 Turrets)
40 x Bofors 40mm AA guns
54 x 20mm AA guns
Armor:
16.1 inches (409 mm) belt armor tapering to 10.1 inch
7.2 inches (183 mm) side-belt armor tapering to 1"
18 inches (457 mm) forward bilhead armor
15.25 inches (387 mm) aft bulkhead armor
21.3 inches (541 mm) barbette armor
22.5 inches (572 mm) turret face armor
9.9 inches (251 mm) turret roof armor
9.3 inches (236 mm) Deck Armor
Aircraft:
4 x O2SU Kingfisher Patrol float planes
2 x Stern Catapults

Yamato class
Displacement
62,315t standard, 67,123t trial, 69,990t full load
Length 244m pp, 256m wl, 263m oa
Width 36.9m
Draught 10.4m
Machinery 4 shaft geared turbine, 12 boilers, 150,000shp
Fuel Oil 6300t
Speed 27kt
Armour belt 410mm, deck 230-200mm, barbette 546-50mm, turret 650-193mm,
CT 500-300mm
Armament 9-46cm/45cal gun (3x3), 12-15.5cm/60cal gun (3x4), 12-12.7cm/45cal AA gun (2x6),
24-25mm AA, 4-13.2mm AA, 7 aircraft
Complement 2500

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now I'll try to comment on this:
...

Another question I have would be on the main batteries. Over time, back then, ever larger gun size was perhaps the single biggest aim to achieve. I see some logic that fewer turrets make the whole thing more efficient. Texas era ships, seem to have had generally more turrets (with fewer guns,

Was the amount of independently "targetable" guns ever a concern in battleship design, or were the main batteries normallly aim at the same target anyway?

...

but there'll be no link, blame me directly LOL

here's why I think Battleships designed around 1910 (as the Texas here) didn't have a smaller number of turrets in super-firing arrangements (but multiple, spread-over-the-ship turrets instead):

#1 stability - the top weight would be increased (about ten? meters difference from the lower turret), and "mass would be concentrated around their location"

#2 safety - they feared both turrets could be taken out by some (un)fortunate hit
(I suppose we know firing the main guns used to cause "damage to itself" (for example the South Dakota in the action mentioned in this thread lost power after commencing fire, due to short-circuiting), so I can imagine if one of the turrets was holed (and at least the propellants inside it exploded then), it'd create "a shock-wave" which could take out training/elevation/loading gears in the nearby turret, too ... or "debris" could damage the barrels above/below etc.)

#3 visibility - in low wind speed there would be plenty of smoke on the deck level, then higher ... I mean something like this:
Viribus_Unitis_09.jpg

not good for your aiming, especially of the secondary-battery guns ... with big gaps between turrets, smoke would go away more quickly

#4 fire-control would depend on the particular Navy and it's a pretty complicated subject; I of course agree with what
The different turrets were definitely capable of independent targeting. Each gun in a turret also had the capability of differing elevations.

The thing is I don't know what the US Navy procedure would be in theory, but in practise (of the times 100 years ago, that's what I'm talking about :) instead of ranging by single guns, salvo-firing was much efficient while trying to cover the target; instead of talking in a general way about dispersion or something, I'll give here an example:

from what I figured, the Austro-Hungarian Battleships would first go for the 1/10 estimated-distance split by firing from one turret to the respective position "in front", and from the other: "behind" the target, and then the splits should be halved until bracketing (or the process would have to be restarted if it was found out something had gone wrong LOL)
Did the USN have something more sophisticated available before WW1? I don't know, but anyway the procedures were later influenced by the Royal Navy, thanks to its very real experience ...

now I started to wonder what the reactions will be here ...
 
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A what if question :) seeing Iowa modernised, a Harpoon with a warhead of 220 kg or better a former Tomahawk anti-ship 450 kg want a 406 mm or eventually 457 mm shell can perforate a big armoring ?

...

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you asked
  • if the US AShMs were able to penetrate the belt armor of 12.1" (310 mm), I'd answer: I don't think so
  • about firing 16"/18" shells to achieve this penetration, I'd speculate about 25/30 km distance max. if the target was perpendicular to you (and assuming your APC shell is good :) anyway it's kinda theory as at such long distances you would more likely hit the deck, and probably penetrate it: 7.5" (190 mm) but again, it depends on the angle of attack etc. ...
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Ok ;)

Simply for get a idea how mm can perforate a modern anti-ship missiles and if do the job vs a big BB.

For armoring, sea skimming missiles logically strikes vs belt eventually deck out posible also ofc but also armor is thinner or nothing at the bow and stern, impossible have a big armoring everywhere or the ships do 100000 + t and a speed of 15 kn... ! a real snail :D

Same problem for Tank the three ingredients Power, Protection and Mobility to mixed the best possible, remains difficult !
 

Lezt

Junior Member
I think, the Iowas are an intersteing class of BB.

I am not sure if it is actually true, but some people claim that the US designed the Iowas as fast battleships to counter the Kongos, while the Montana's were supposed to fight in a battle line as traditional first rates.

This is more evident by the armor scheme; the Iowa class had very similar level of protection as the preceding south dakotas, with the same armor belt, bulkheads, deck, barrettes; only the turret face and conning tower had a minor improvement of thickness when being 10,000 tons heavier (and longer, 270 m vs 210m) and carried the same diameter guns, but 50 cal vs 45 cal (which is only 40 Ton heavier per barrel).

Thus the length is for the hull form and machinery for a 5 knot gain, thus naming aside, and argument could be made that the Iowas are more like battleships designed to hunt down battle-cruisers, as battle-cruisers were designed to hunt down cruisers.

Armor scheme is an elaborate science that even after years of reading over things, I won't and is not ready to come to a conclusion upon. what I would like to point out is that, the Iowas used an internal type torpedo defense system (torpedo belt) like found on the bismark, KGV etc. instead of the torpedo bulges used on Pennsylvania, Texas, Colorado, New York class (aka. standard battleship)

The belts are much less effective than the bulges - and I think it could be argued both ways; but I am sticking to the theory that bulges are better. however the bulges were heavier and they slowed down the ship as it made the ship wider.

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Fuso, Yamashiro, with bulges took 2 and 4 torpedoes each, the later actually got away and was sunk by shell fire, the former was blown into two, but two halves stayed afloat for some time,
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of ships of that era not fitted with torpedo defense systems Pennsylvania/Maryland was cripple with 1 torpedo each
Mushashi and Yamato with buldges took 20 and 13 torpedoes to sink repectively; or that era bismark/POW/ took 8 torpedo to be crippled/sunk and 7 torpedo to sink respectively.

This is not an exact science and no absolute conclusion could be drawn.


The argument that was made:
It turns out the design was spawned from the general board's thoughts on Naval combat in the mid 1930s. By 1935, the common thought was that war in the Pacific would be won by a strong push through the center, led by the main fleets. To support such a strong advance would require a massive line of supply vessels. Japanese carrier and cruiser attacks on these supply lines was believed to be the greatest threat. The United States believed that roving carrier squadrons would be the best defense against such forces. However, the main Japanese units most feared by the US turned out to be none other than the Kongo class battleships. The United States believed that Japan would have these high speed vessels provide cover for the cruisers in the attack on US supply lines. (The Japanese actually used the Kongo class in a manner similar to this in 1941) This concerned Navy Commanders as the Kongo vessels could overwhelm the escorts to the carrier squadrons. Their high speed also meant that the United States 21 knot battleship force would be unable to bring the Kongo class to battle. It was decided that an even faster battleship force was needed to effectively engage the Japanese fleet. Enter the Iowa class.

As early as 1936, the general board had already provided designs showing a 33 knot battleship. The first design showed a 35,000 ton vessel with 191,000SHP and a length of 788ft. (The longer a vessel is, the less power it requires to achieve high speed) However, the London Naval Treaty hampered further design. Just as it transformed the North Carolina class, it also changed the Iowa design. Rumors of new Japanese battleships of 46,000 tons, armed with 16" or possibly 18" cannons also caused the new design changes. A battleship of 45,000 tons was chosen as the base on which to further build. In 1938, two designs were developed.

The first design followed a more traditional method. A heavily armed and armored battleship of 27 knots built on a lengthen South Dakota type hull. Armament would have been either 12x 16" guns in four turrets or mount 9x 18" guns then in development. The other design was termed a "cruiser-killer". At roughly 50,000 tons this vessel was to mount 12x 16" guns in four turrets and steam at 35 knots for 20,000 nautical miles. This performance was to be achieved at the expense of armor. This ship was to be protected from 8" gunfire only. (It was thought that the ship would be ideal at attacking Japanese commerce (German pocket battleship on steroids)) A variant of this second design was ultimately worked into the final design for the Iowa class. (This data was also used in designing the Alaska class vessels some years later)
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dtfLjI7.jpg

2000px-Yamato-armorsheme-DE_-_magazines_cut.svg.png

706px-Nagatoarmor.svg.png

016715.jpg

(Montana)
BB_comp1.jpg


sorry, I had to go, I will finish this post later.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
sorry, I had to go, I will finish this post later.
Damn !


Panama Canal.PNG
For comparison with the canal :
Yamato : 263 x 38,9 x 11 m too large
Iowa : 270 x 33 x 11 too just to its width
Montana : 281 x 37 x 11 too large
South Dakota : 210 x 33 x 11 too just to its width
North Carolina : 222 x 33 x 10.8 too just to its width
Others US BB more old in general a max beam of 29.7 allow passage
 
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