welcome to the 90's!
Do China's third generation fighters have much combat value?
- Thread starter legoboy
- Start date
welcome to the 90's!
Hyperwarp
Captain
the PLAAF does not operate JH-7, PLAN-AF does. PLAAF operate only JH-7A. JH-7/7A are strike aircraft like the Tornado & Jaguar. Q-5 is an attack A/C. None of these are fighters. Q-5 desperately needs a replacement but the JH-7/7A will be replaced by either the JH-7B? or J-16. But even today the the JH-7A is valuable asset for PLAAF/PLAN-AF. It can carry homegrown anti-ship & Air-to-Ground weapons which the MKK/MK2 can't.
As for fighters, the J-7 & J-8 left are J-7E/G & J-8H/F (or 'D' upgraded to H or F standard). Rest of them are J-10/10A, J-11B, Su-27SK/J-11/J-11A, Su-30MKK (this is excluding the PLAN-AF). Just ask 'franco-russe' or 'deino' for the numbers. There are other programs in additions to the 5th gen J-20.
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Dizasta1
Senior Member
I wouldn't recommend underestimating China's J-8IIs, as they are a very potent interceptor fighter-jet. Also, Q-5s are a very lethal ground attack fighter-bomber and not to mention the fact that Chinese H-6 bombers can pulverize enemy positions in times of war.
At the moment, China is the in the midst of building a modern, lethal and organized military force. This includes induction of J-10s, J-11s, J-20s, F-60s, JH-7s, L-15s and other force-multiplier aircraft. By 2022, China's military would have vastly out classed the indian military. Suffice to say, the indian military's procurement process has had a dismal record.
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MwRYum
Major
J-7, J-8II and Q-5 are relics, hopelessly outclassed and outgunned by assets found in its potential enemies, which is why the J-10, J-11 are stepping in, and in the short future WZ-10 take up the role of Q-5 (roles that Q-5 performs now are either taken up by multi-role jets or attack helicopters). PLAAF keeping them around is because they as an organization is also in the midst of major transition, unfortunately the number of J-10 and J-11 are dictated by how many engines they can buy from Russia.
That said, the only advantage - at least in Chinese perspective - is that they're "all MIC", the sourcing problem at least not as acute...in the case of JH-7, they try to make it as the cheaper alternative of the Su-30MKK, capable on some roles but inferior nonetheless.
India? Their logistics is nightmarish enough already - if and when a fight stretches, it'll boil down to how they keep up with the attrition whether it's lost in combat or wear-and-tear.
That said, the only advantage - at least in Chinese perspective - is that they're "all MIC", the sourcing problem at least not as acute...in the case of JH-7, they try to make it as the cheaper alternative of the Su-30MKK, capable on some roles but inferior nonetheless.
India? Their logistics is nightmarish enough already - if and when a fight stretches, it'll boil down to how they keep up with the attrition whether it's lost in combat or wear-and-tear.
Correction: the flying bomb was the V-1. V-2 was a liquid fuel rocket with a length of 14 meters.
Kurt
Junior Member
High-low mix? Electronic emission and sensor pods don't mind being on a 3rd or 6th generation aircraft. Noise draws enemy attention and gives a better target solution. Having a cheap asset carry the noise or serve as bomb-trucks is a most sensible way to not waist assets. You need the 5th generation for more demanding tasks, like hidden fighters that provide insecurity to the enemy and strikes against difficult to crack targets.
If you want to see how outstanding all these old aircrafts can perform, take a look at Israel with a fleet of F-15 and F-16 they still push the envelope of outstanding capability with a very small budget!
If you want to see how outstanding all these old aircrafts can perform, take a look at Israel with a fleet of F-15 and F-16 they still push the envelope of outstanding capability with a very small budget!
lcloo
Captain
My mistake, thanks for the correction.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
WHY are you trying to start an India vs China argument?!?! you know this will only end up becoming a heated discussion and probably get a few members banned... most likely you.
However with that being said I do think your initial idea of older gen fighters of PLAAF do merit some discussion as it is somewhat true BUT let's discuss that on it's own merit and not do any sort of comparisons with India or Somalia or the North Pole.
Last I check India and China while not best friends are not exactly on the verge of full scale war so these types of comparison at this time is not only unproductive but useless.
MwRYum
Major
Hi-Lo mix only works if they're of the same generation (technology wise) and can compliment each other, the "single-digits" are at least a generation older than those "teens" and the inferiority is all spectrum - use to smack even more inferior foes like the Philippines are more than enough but they got no range to get there; anyone within their operational range have better stuff.
So other than keeping the regular patrol and help maintaining the needed flight hours for the pilots, the "single-digits" are relics and useless.
Yet, given the PLAAF and PLANAF are gearing up their pilots' flight hours to the level comparable with Western standards the workload put on the "teens" - especially the 2-seaters - are immense and that leaves to those planes' flight hours lifespan quickly clocks up...it'd be better if they can leave such workload to comparable generation of training jets, but none are in service yet.
Under such circumstances, the number of combat worthy "teens" are actually lower still...that translated into the "single-digit" have to hold the line some more, despite their obsolescence.
Kurt
Junior Member
I agree, range and speed of these old fighters make them kind of obsolete, but they can fly sensor and electronic warfare packages (look at the generation of current US navy electronic warfare aircrafts) around and deliver bombs over a limited distance. The bomb delivery could certainly be done much cheaper with more up to date aircrafts and you are right that they are a stop gap measure. They are not yet useless, they are a number of available platforms capable of serving as "trucks" within their confines. With a defensive set-up that allows for pilot recovery, they can play a role that could be disproportional to their platform capability if part of a good network. If going on the offense, better not sit in one of these. Replacing them with more dedicated modern trainers might be a more economic option, but for some reason there's an inertia against too much modernism and an interesting calculation of costs - the old birds are expensive to fly.