Cold War Era US/NATO and USSR/Warsaw Pact

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
This thread is for historical documentation and discussion of Cold War Era encounters between US/NATO and USSR/Warsaw Pact forces.

No arguments, national rhetoric, political or ideological rants or discussions allowed and this will be STRICTLY enforced.

Links to reports and valid, non-political, non-ideological analysis are fine, as well as your own thoughts on specific events.

But remember the admonition above.

I will start with an exchange on the US News thread regarding the 1968 crash of a TU-16 bomber while buzzing the USS Essex aircraft carrier in the Norwegian Sea.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
1st Post: From Thunderchief

Thunderchief said:
Throughout Cold War US and Soviet forces regularly jammed each other. It is not anything new, nor is a reason to open fire, as EM spectrum in international space is for practical purposes open to anyone . There are some conventions regulating civilian radio traffic, but nothing about military radar frequencies . All that being said, it is considered a very bad form to turn on your fire control radar and lock it in foreign ship or aircraft , and both US and Soviet forces usually restrained themselves from doing that .

Btw, if you think this incident was dangerous, in 1968 Soviet Tu-16 performed simulated attacks on US aircraft carrier and one of them crashed for unknown reasons. US did everything possible to prove they didn't have anything to do with that in order to avoid conflict

[video=youtube;l3bijF2--os]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3bijF2--os[/video]
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Btw, if you think this incident was dangerous, in 1968 Soviet Tu-16 performed simulated attacks on US aircraft carrier and one of them crashed for unknown reasons. US did everything possible to prove they didn't have anything to do with that in order to avoid conflict
The US films, are failry convincing that the US did not attack that bomber. In fct, the Societs never said the US did. The Soviets contended that a US helicopter in the area caused the TU-16 to have to take evasive measures to keep from hitting it.

That would be part of the extreme hazard the Soviet pilot took if it were true. US naval helicopters flying at low levels around US carriers is a common thing.

As it was, as can be seen the TU-16 passed several times at very hazardous altitudes and attitudes.

It could easily have been downed as it egressed from any of those. As it was, it crashed several miles away.

Just the same, such passes which hazard personnel by the thousands and capitol vessels would have been viewed very seriously and there is no doubt in my mind that the US forces on scene that day were prepared to down that aircraft. As well they should have been.

An eye witness aboard the USS Essex gave this account:

US Navy HS-9 Mechanic said:
I watched the entire thing while working on the flight deck. I was a helicopter mechanic in HS-9 at the time. When it overflew the flight deck you could feel the heat and smell the jet exhaust. After the flight deck overfly (starboard to port) he continued to fly away from the ship at low level. He gained a little altitude and started to make a left turn, leveled back out, lost altitude and when it looked like he was going to make a controlled ditching his left wing dipped and hit the water and then he cartwheeled in a ball of flame. Our helicopters were in the air already and made a beeline for the crash, hovered in the smoke but no one survived. I remember when in went in we cheered, but then quieted down when we all realized that these guys were doing the same thing we were, for the same reason.

One of the later analysis reports read as follows:

Analysis said:
In May 1968 the aircraft-carrier USS Essex and its escorts were operating in the Norwegian Sea. The importance of its presence was significant to the USSR. Soviet surveillance aircraft were ordered to keep track of the USS Essex at all the time with flights every 4 hours. In spite of the continuous tracking, early on May 25, 1968, contact was lost.

The officer chosen to keep track of the Essex was Lieutenant Colonel Alexandr Plyiev. Plyiev was himself an top pilot who had trained the personnel in his wing how to fly at low altitude to avoid being detected by US radar. It was rumored in he Soviet Union that he flew so close to the water that when returning to the base his windows were scored with saltpeter.

Plyiev himself found the US carrier later on May 25th. Once he radioed the coordinates of the US carrier to the soviet fleet, he either decided, or was ordered to make several low level passes. After one of these passes the plane crashed into the sea. Although the Soviets indicated that Plyiev may have crashed while trying to avoid an American helicopter, the official version provided by the US Navy - whose personnel witnessed the crash - was that the aircraft crashed after one of its wings hit the water.

The video of the event, which was declassified by the US Navy, shows the moments prior to the accident, and after. Plyiev’s Tu-16 flies by and over the Essex at about 250-300 MPH and only 40-50 feet above the water. Plyiev crashes when turning his TU-16 back at some distance from the carrier. After a few moments a second Tu-16 flies by to see what happened.

So, we have all be left trying to decipher what actually happened ever since.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Response by Thunderchief:

Thunderchief said:
Numerous Soviet naval and air contacts were reported by U.S. search aircraft, and in the VP-26 squadron report, at least two PB4Y-2 APS-15 radar operators reported noise- modulated radar jamming. The jamming obliterated the APS-15 scopes in up to 30-degree sectors for as long as three hours. The reports varied as to the origin of the jamming, but it was believed to have originated from a Soviet submarine or from ashore in Latvia.

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In those days radars usually operated at preset frequency, frequency-hopping was invented later . Both sides "knew" most of the frequencies of other side search radars , at least those used in peacetime . Also, both sides had informal agreement not to use fire-control radars against each other ships or aircraft (operating at different frequencies then search radar) , as that itself could be interpreted as act of aggression . Therefore, jamming of said fire-control radars and other similar equipment didn't happen often (it would be serious escalation both to use them and to jam them ) .

Later, as radar technology progressed, new types of radar were introduced , with dual roles (search and track ) , frequency-hopping and many other things. Consequently , jamming was changed too - no longer would you just pump signals at certain frequency . Instead, sophisticated jamming techniques try to either give false readings about targets range, create false targets, or simply make target "disappear" from radar (cancel out signal) .

In any case, in modern times it is very hard to distinguish does your target (ship or aircraft) have hostile intentions . Modern equipment don't have telltale signs of imminent attack like older systems . Therefore, sneak attacks are possibility, but knowing what is at stake here I don't think either side would go for it (especially with something relatively minor like attacking one destroyer)
.

The US films, are failry convincing that the US did not attack that bomber. In fct, the Societs never said the US did. The Soviets contended that a US helicopter in the area caused the TU-16 to have to take evasive measures to keep from hitting it.

Yes, but Soviet side was presented with this film, and probably some other evidence that remains classified to convince them . Reason for that is that both sides agreed they have right to buzz each others ships (and aircraft) in international waters , and they bot did that (and still do ) . Therefore, it would be illegal for US to shoot down that Tu-16 no matter how dangerous it was potentially carrying God knows what in its internal bay .
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Numerous Soviet naval and air contacts were reported by U.S. search aircraft, and in the VP-26 squadron report, at least two PB4Y-2 APS-15 radar operators reported noise- modulated radar jamming. The jamming obliterated the APS-15 scopes in up to 30-degree sectors for as long as three hours. The reports varied as to the origin of the jamming, but it was believed to have originated from a Soviet submarine or from ashore in Latvia.

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.
1st, we were discussing fly bys and active jamming from aircraft which could be on an attack profile.

Something done from further distances on land or unknown sources is a different matter.

Second, combat and fighting could easily break out over the destruction of a US or Russian major combatant.

And almost certainly would over the destruction or heavy damage of a vessel like a carrier...whether US or Russian..

This is why attack profile flybys with active jamming from the aircraft doing it...particularly as they bear in on the vessel, are extremely foolhardy and dangerous.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
1st, we were discussing fly bys and active jamming from aircraft which could be on an attack profile.

Something done from further distances on land or unknown sources is a different matter.

Second, combat and fighting could easily break out over the destruction of a US or Russian major combatant.

And almost certainly would over the destruction or heavy damage of a vessel like a carrier...whether US or Russian..

This is why attack profile flybys with active jamming from the aircraft doing it...particularly as they bear in on the vessel, are extremely foolhardy and dangerous.

Well, usual military doctrine (then and now) is to separate jamming and attacking aircraft .In other words, you would have something like Tu-16P back then or Growler now, standing somewhat in the distance and trying to cover attack aircraft which in turn try to remain undetected as long as possible .

Also, even during Cold War tactics of getting close to attack enemy ships was pretty much obsolete and very much dangerous (let's remember Falklands war and Argentinian loses) . In modern time, especially against Aegis ship , it would be suicidal. Even if you could jam radars (very difficult) at that distance you would have to deal with electro-optical systems (almost impossible) . Therefore, real attack would look much different , with attacking aircraft releasing its missiles very far from target.

Therefore, despite alarming headlines in the media, I don't think that incident with Su-24 was something extraordinary . We had one unarmed plane buzzing around ship, possibly turning on its jammers and nothing more .
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
... despite alarming headlines in the media, I don't think that incident with Su-24 was something extraordinary . We had one unarmed plane buzzing around ship, possibly turning on its jammers and nothing more .
I agree...and said so at the time.

It was not abnormal. And IMHO, was to be expected.

The US did not venture into the Black Sea during the Cold War...that was the USSR's Gulf of Mexico.

Now, after the breakup of the USSR, with Georgia, the Ukraine, and others being independent, the US is venturing in there as are NATO countries.

But Russia still does not like it one bit and you can expect them to do some buzzing to show their discontent.
 

Jeff Head

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The F-14, for its time, was an EXCELLENT aircraft.

it was designed to provide air defense for the carrier against Soviet air attack, particularly against bombers carrying long range ASMs. With its speed, range, and particularly with its Phoenix missile system...it did this extremely well.

The idea was to push the acquisition and engagement range against the Soviet strike aircraft out beyond the range of their missiles. The F-14 made that possible.

The US Navy lost over a hundred miles, all around the carrier, of this air defense buffer when the F-14s and the Phoenix were retired without an equally capable replacement.

Once the Super Hornet came online, and it was coupled with later, longer range variants of the AMRAAM...a lot of that lost ground was made up...but to this day, not all of it.

OBTW, the Tomcat could also turn and burn very well.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
The US Navy lost over a hundred miles, all around the carrier, of this air defense buffer when the F-14s and the Phoenix were retired without an equally capable replacement.

I heard it was withdrawn because it had become expensive after the budget got the axe.
 
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