Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

That's interesting. I was always under the impression the order for K-8P was 39 on top of the original 12 K-8s. Do you have any articles on this?

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my source is AFM i will try and scan the article in

this number of 39 which is widely believed is actually made up of 12 K-8 + 27 K-8Ps = 39 K-8/K-8Ps.

Pakistan got 6 K-8 in 1995 and 6 more in 2003 which are being upgraded at PAC Kamra to the K-8P standard , including a head-up display and cockpit multifunction displays, to assist with weapon training

then ordered 27 K-8Ps in 2005 deliverys as follows

8 in Sep 2007
8 in Jan 2009
11 in Oct 2010

total 27 K-8Ps, this was followed up with additionl order of K-8Ps to reach 80

very recently Pakistan just replaced FT-5 trainers on a cermoney held on 5th January 2012 with new K-8Ps at PAF Base Mianwali

Pakistan still has alot of FT-5 and FT-6 to replace hence the follow on order

Source: AFM. Dec. 2010

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

2 years old but still worth a read, there is speculation that PAF is set to 4 evalution aircraft before commiting to a firm order this year

Pakistan to Acquire L-15 Supersonic Jet Trainer Aircraft

05 February 2010


The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is to acquire L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft from China to equip its transition pilots with advanced fighters and reduce the number of its trainer aircraft from four to two.

The Hongdu-developed L-15 can carry light rockets and bombs, and air-to-air missiles. It mainly fulfils a counter-insurgency role.

The L-15 aircraft, equipped with two seats and two engines, features technologies such as digital quadruple fly-by-wire and glass cockpit (two multicolour head-down displays for both the front and rear cockpit.

The L-15 aircraft also features an additional head-up display for the front cockpit, and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) flight control.

The L-15 aircraft will replace the K-8 Karakorum basic / advanced jet trainer, which is currently used by the PAF.

The air force has conducted detailed examinations of the L-15 aircraft, and is currently undergoing negotiations on technical aspects and pricing.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

What is the typical trainer to frontline fighter ratio in western air forces? 80 K8s and probably ultimately several dozen L15s seems quite high for an air force the size of the PAF.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

plawolf said:

What is the typical trainer to frontline fighter ratio in western air forces? 80 K8s and probably ultimately several dozen L15s seems quite high for an air force the size of the PAF.

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the thing is K-8/P is not just used for training, it is also a very good aircraft for use in COIN operations (counter insurgency) and few of the Latin American countrys are using it for that purpose, and in time of war will be a very good ground attack platform

since PAF lacks attack helos K-8 will be devastating to advancing ground formations, it can be equipped with 23mm cannons, unguided rockets and air-to-air missiles also reducing ground support and cost and freeing up the frontline fighters like F16 C/D for serious aerial combat

last year PLAAF used K-8 in ground attack for the first time, it conducted live firing for unguided rockets

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Interesting, I knew that the K8 had a secondary COIN function, but I was not aware that the PAF was using them in this role since it is always been F16s and JF17s that we hear being using in bombing missions on insurgents.

Do you have any more info on when the K8 was used in action?

Also, doesn't the PAF use Qs as a dedicated ground attack aircraft?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

our last A5 Fantan sqaudron which served for almost 30 years was replaced in April 2011 when No. 16 Black Panthers squadron was officially re-equipped with JF-17 multi-role fighter, right now lots of FT-5 and FT-6 being retired so K8/P is filling the gaps, once we get more then you will see K8 in ground attack mode

PAF has now retired A5, and JF17 was in action last year in Waziristan in ground attack but fighters like JF17 and F16 form the top end of PAF, too valuable to use for ground attack, also expensive, thier job in war is to engage Su30 MKIs

K8s in the hands of highly trained expert ground attack fighter pilots will have a devastating effect on any armoured force, swopping in low, manouvering, dipping and diving while at the same time hitting target with pin point accuracy

that role does not fit well for JF17 and F16 although if need arises they can do it but better to leave that for K8s, as one day, India will field more than 200 Su 30 MKIs

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I dont think K-8 is good for COIN role...

First, what is the payload of K-8? 4 rocket pod is just not enough to carry out destruction unless you are attacking 1 or 2 armour vehicles...


A-10 and Su-25 is still the best for such role.
Second, is K-8 armour enough to withstand small arms inlcuding some heavy guns like 0.5 or 20mm cannon?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Lion said:

I dont think K-8 is good for COIN role...

First, what is the payload of K-8? 4 rocket pod is just not enough to carry out destruction unless you are attacking 1 or 2 armour vehicles...


A-10 and Su-25 is still the best for such role.
Second, is K-8 armour enough to withstand small arms inlcuding some heavy guns like 0.5 or 20mm cannon?

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In COIN operations, the likely targets are groups of insurgents armed with rifles and machine guns, RPGs and possibly man-pads. The insurgents are unlikely to have amoured vehicles. And the fightings are likely to be localised Internal Security affairs. Example would be Southern Phillipines Muslim rebellion. A few iron bombs and several dozens of rockets would be suffixed for most missions.

A-10 and SU-25 are designed for ground attack roles, targets are foreign regular armed forces armed to the teeth with MBT, IFV, SAM, AAA etc. And these aircraft are armoured to survive heavy damages caused by AA fires.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

depends really, Israeli air force wiped out an entire Egyptian army in 1967 with airpower alone, no aircraft were armoured they were just used correctly in the ground attack role using Napalm and had the crucial element of suprise, and they were very low level attacks

12.7mm is pretty deadly to any low flying aircraft you know, as is the RPG, 2 US Chinnoks were shot down in 2002 with RPGs, even US Apaches have been lost to single RPG hit

when Pakistan did operation in Waziristan its AH-1 Cobras were in action, 3 of our Cobras took very heavy damage, so much so that they were eventually withdrawn from service to undergo complete re-build but they did not go down

during Soviet invasion a Hind gunship was hit by not 1 but 2 stinger missiles but it made it back to base!! and yes we are talking about the Stinger missile!

obviously armed K8 will not be anything like the awesome power the A-10 tank busters, but certainly enough to keep the enemy pinned down and cause them to change tatics

but yes, K8 for COIN is perfect

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

asif iqbal said:

depends really, Israeli air force wiped out an entire Egyptian army in 1967 with airpower alone, no aircraft were armoured they were just used correctly in the ground attack role using Napalm and had the crucial element of suprise, and they were very low level attacks

obviously armed K8 will not be anything like the awesome power the A-10 tank busters, but certainly enough to keep the enemy pinned down and cause them to change tatics

but yes, K8 for COIN is perfect

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I have to agree with asif igbal. Even though the K-8 will not withstand 12.7mm gunfire, they will have a certain advantage of surprise in their speed and small size. One must not discount the demoralize effect that rockets, strafing and general mayhem has on ground troops. Especially if they are on roads, since this will act as a force multiplier.