Chinese Swords

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Well You have to also Consider the influences of the Culture and there roots. the most common sword of Early Europe was the Roman Gladiolus It spread near and far from Italy to Germany and Scotland. the second early and advanced maker of European swords was the Vikings.

Materials is a critical factor as well European steel is not the same as Chinese and Vice verse

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This is one of my favorite documentary. Very cool example of early cultural diffusion.

one thing remember is the materials Copper was the first metal but it was soft and bent easily it took a edge but after a few uses it needed to be resharpened. Then came Bronze it's stronger but it bends and warps with stress. Iron took it to the next level but Steel. Steel makes the legend, Steel is what makes a sword that can not only cut but flex and last and then it needs to be quality steel. mastery of steel is what made the Reputation of the Katana and the Viking Swords in that documentary. Once the Secret was lost it took almost a millennial for Europe to rediscover the secret and craft blades like that again. for the period of the Bronze and Copper Ages Those lesser metals were fine but once the steel age was on it was the steel That could break a Empire.

Brumby said:

It is very clear in meaning between "dao" and "jian" if used in context of Chinese usage of the word. The problem is when you want to discuss "sword" and relate it to European development. I think one has to make up the mind what you want to discuss, Chinese or European sword development? If you interchange the conversion between the two, you will end up with a circular problem. So stick to your terms of reference.

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That is exactly my point to Shen.

shen said:

From the website Lezt linked to earlier. This is what the author has to say about the transition from jian to dao.

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"This switch by the Chinese military from double-edged swords (jian) to single-edged swords (dao) during the Han Dynasty was prompted by the extensive use of Chinese cavalry in combat against proto-Mongol nomads. In mounted warfare, slashing/chopping actions were more important than thrusting. However, the jian remained and continued to be used throughout the various dynasties by civilians, and selectively by generals, who strapped on the jian as a symbol of their rank. It seems that there was, however, a resurgence in the use of the jian as a military weapon during the Song Dynasty."

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The reason for adoption of single-edged weapons after the prevalence of cavalry was not because thrusting was less important but rather single-edged weapons could deal and take the stronger force of mounted blows without breaking as much as double-edged weapons would because of the increased strength of the non-bladed edge. Evidence of the continued importance of thrusting was the growing use of polearms whose primary purpose was thrusting.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

one thing remember is the materials Copper was the first metal but it was soft and bent easily it took a edge but after a few uses it needed to be resharpened. Then came Bronze it's stronger but it bends and warps with stress. Iron took it to the next level but Steel. Steel makes the legend, Steel is what makes a sword that can not only cut but flex and last and then it needs to be quality steel. mastery of steel is what made the Reputation of the Katana and the Viking Swords in that documentary. Once the Secret was lost it took almost a millennial for Europe to rediscover the secret and craft blades like that again. for the period of the Bronze and Copper Ages Those lesser metals were fine but once the steel age was on it was the steel That could break a Empire.

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While I liked that documentary very much, I think the show did overstate the advantage of crucible steel compare to ancient European steel made with the bloomery method. The flexibility and reliance of the blade which the show attributes to crucible steel are really mainly derived from good quenching and tempering technique. This video talks about that point.
So crucible steel may have higher carbon content, but if heat treated to a spring temper at the same level as a bloomery steel sword, the edge wouldn't be harder. Crucible steel would have the advantage of lower slag content, but bloomery steel that has been beaten and folded many many time should also have low slag content. That's my understanding anyway, could be wrong.

Notice he talk about the tendency of traditional differentially heat treated katana to take bend. Chinese sword is an interesting middle ground. Most traditional Chinese swords are made in the same laminated sanmei (higher carbon content steel sandwiched between lower carbon content steel) construction as Japanese blades, but most Chinese sword were evenly tempered to a spring temper like European sword. In late Ming, when China imported a long number of Japanese blades, it was noticed while the differentially heat treated Japanese blade did have a harder edge it was also more likely to take a permanent bent. So it is a trade off what quality is more desirable.

Another question I have is whether ancient Chinese swords were made with bloomery steel or blast furnace steel?

I would guess Shen a little of both in terms of Bloomery vs Crucible. The Documentary Stated that Crucible was known in the middle east particularly Iran, and that's on the Silk road If The Norse could get that technology form there then it's entirely possible it either came from China or Went to China.

Taiwanese traditional sword maker
I am guessing he uses Blooming as the sparks from his hammer are quite large.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

I would guess Shen a little of both in terms of Bloomery vs Crucible. The Documentary Stated that Crucible was known in the middle east particularly Iran, and that's on the Silk road If The Norse could get that technology form there then it's entirely possible it either came from China or Went to China.

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Well, the Damascus type crucible steel talked about in the Viking sword video is actually different from the blast furnace steel made in the traditional Chinese way.
Crucible steel starts with very low carbon content wrought iron probably made with the bloomery method, then add a carbon source such as ash and a flux such as glass, sealed in an airtight crucible and heated to a very high temperature until everything melt and mingle. When cooled, the slag bond to the flux and you are left with a very pure high carbon steel ingot.
Traditional Chinese blast furnace way of steel making doesn't go through the bloomery stage. The iron ore is heated directly to very high temperature until it become liquid, since the iron is not sealed in an airtight container it absorbs a lot of carbon from the fuel source, so liquid iron is very high carbon content pig iron which pooled and formed into ingot. To get wrought iron, the liquid pig iron is stirred in open air to burn off the carbon. Finally to get steel, high carbon steel pig iron and mixed with wrought iron to form intermediate carbon content steel. The final steel made in the Chinese method was probably not as pure as the crucible steel, but the benefit is that it can be cheaply made on large industrial scale.
I don't know if it is possible to tell Chinese blast furnace steel apart from bloomery steel on a microscopic level, and may be that's why I can't find any information which type of steel ancient Chinese swords were made from.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Taiwanese traditional sword maker

I am guessing he uses Blooming as the sparks from his hammer are quite large.

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It is possible. But it is hard to tell how "traditional" he really is. In the video you see him welding with modern equipment It is also possible since he is from Taiwan, he learned sword making from traditional Japanese technique, which we know is the bloomery method. Much of traditional Chinese sword making techniques have been lost. Most so called traditional Chinese swordsmith today are not really traditional. Some Chinese swordsmith are trying to relearn the traditional techniques, but it is a slow process of trial and error.

Here is video of semi-traditional sword making.

They are working from industrial plate steel, so I don't know what's the point of even showing the iron sand and furnace. The forge is kinda makeshift, but principle is the same. They are coating the plates in clay before heating in the forge to prevent carbon absorption, but not sure how effective their method is. The lamination process is well illustrated. They are water quenching and not differentially heat treating. Tempering is not shown at all! Hope they did it otherwise that jian may shatter.
I guess one have to be pretty mental to attempt a completely traditional process from start to finish today, and very skilled. And probably very hard to make a profit that way.

shen said:

It is possible. But it is hard to tell how "traditional" he really is. In the video you see him welding with modern equipment It is also possible since he is from Taiwan, he learned sword making from traditional Japanese technique, which we know is the bloomery method. Much of traditional Chinese sword making techniques have been lost. Most so called traditional Chinese swordsmith today are not really traditional. Some Chinese swordsmith are trying to relearn the traditional techniques, but it is a slow process of trial and error.

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One needs to remember that the Chinese swordsmithing traditions never really disappeared (since swords were still being made by hand in the late Qing dynasty and even during WWII), it's more a matter of relearning the techniques for the uninitiated. I once saw a blog (can't recall where) for instance of a mainland Chinese swordsmith who taught himself swordmaking over a period of 30 years that was good enough to impress even the traditional Japanese swordsmiths.