Chinese purchase of Su-35

Instead of asking why, the question should rather be "why not".
China is not that far ahead in aerospace technology and no doubt is still playing catch up in some areas. So why arrogantly reject an opportunity to learn if the price is no far off, especially that it's from the same suhoi family.
Take a look at high speed rail: Chinese imported technology from Japan, Canada & Germany. Part of reason is to let them compete, part of the reason is to learn from everyone and come up with the best as its own.
Same goes with nuclear reactors. China imported technology from US, Russia, France. Does she have to? Probably not. But she is aiming to be the best, and the mentality is to learn as much as you can and innovate whenever possible.
If this purchase can help China learn about how to counter TVC equipped F-22, or speed up or improve its own program, it would worth it. China is to operate large number of Flankers for decades to come, and this deal is just a small investment to me.

The latest words on that is Chinese pilots are training on SU-35 in Russia and they will fly the 2 Chinese SU-35 and bring the them home soon.

longmarch said:

Instead of asking why, the question should rather be "why not".
China is not that far ahead in aerospace technology and no doubt is still playing catch up in some areas. So why arrogantly reject an opportunity to learn if the price is no far off, especially that it's from the same suhoi family.
Take a look at high speed rail: Chinese imported technology from Japan, Canada & Germany. Part of reason is to let them compete, part of the reason is to learn from everyone and come up with the best as its own.
Same goes with nuclear reactors. China imported technology from US, Russia, France. Does she have to? Probably not. But she is aiming to be the best, and the mentality is to learn as much as you can and innovate whenever possible.
If this purchase can help China learn about how to counter TVC equipped F-22, or speed up or improve its own program, it would worth it. China is to operate large number of Flankers for decades to come, and this deal is just a small investment to me.

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It's not about arrogance. It's about becoming independent.

China is still lagging behind. They need to let go of the crutches. They need to let go of foreign help.

Letting go of the crutches won't be easy. They will experience growing pains. Things will slow down a bit, compared with the situation where they still have help. But they need to let go of they want to be independent.

The pioneers in the field didn't have any help when they develop new technologies. Any followers who aim to become the new leaders will need to do the same.

It's not about ego, not about pride. It's about becoming mentally independent. It's about knowing how to solve problems on your own. Even more importantly, it's about the mental confidence that you can solve problems on your own. It's about not to always go back to your mama and cry in her laps whenever you get a little booboo.

It's like a young adult who needs to leave his family and become his own. It will be messy at the beginning. He will make plenty mistakes. Will it be easier if he asks his mom and dad for help when he needs to buy a new car or a new house? You bet it would! It would save so much trouble. Would that help him become a mature and independent man? Absolutely not! China needs to become independent.

And China knows that. They knew this from the very beginning. And they have been doing that all along. And now you guys want China to go back crying to its mama because of a little booboo?

Blackstone said:

@b787- did China give assurances it wouldn't copy the 117 or did Russia receive extra payments for the IP?

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The Russians know China will try to copy it, but they have one philosophy that s long as Type 30 is ready by 2020, 117 will become obsolete by the time Type 30 enters service, it is similar to Al-21 and Al-31, the early Flanker prototypes were powered by Al-21, the series by Al-31, but here the game is even if China success copying it, in 10-18 years, by that time Type 30 will be in service.

Is not the TVC nozzle, but the supercruise capability that matters, also the SFC, even if the Chinese use 117 on J-20, it is fuel thirsty, the final PAKFA version will fly in 2019-2020 period with type 30.

Todays PAKFA has an engine that gulps a lot of fuel to be considered a 5th generation engine.

So we are looking at an interim engine that allows supercruise but still gulps a lot of fuel, for Su-35 it is okay, but for a F-22 class aircraft it is not

vesicles said:

So somehow having 24 planes, as opposed to 48, won't allow China to copy the engine design? If China wants to copy the engine, one plane is enough.

And why are the Russians so adamant about the not-copy assurance? I'm sure they know that there is no way they can enforce it. What will they do if China copies the engine? Will the Russians invade China? Is that worth the whole deal?

.

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The Chinese can copy the engine, but what is important is the timing, when they do it, if they do it by 2035, what is the gain? but the Russian are worried not about their ability but about sales, the longer they take the less likelihood China can compete with Russian built Flanker or even in PAKFA sales, if J-31 can not get a good engine it gives time for Russia to develop a light weight fighter to compete with F-35, it is sales, money, and Sukhoi is not going to sell one sample minimum is 24 with spare engines

tidalwave said:

The latest words on that is Chinese pilots are training on SU-35 in Russia and they will fly the 2 Chinese SU-35 and bring the them home soon.

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Maybe they will fly them to Zhuhai.

b787 said:

...

Is not the TVC nozzle, but the supercruise capability that matters, also the SFC, even if the Chinese use 117 on J-20, it is fuel thirsty, the final PAKFA version will fly in 2019-2020 period with type 30.

Todays PAKFA has an engine that gulps a lot of fuel to be considered a 5th generation engine.

So we are looking at an interim engine that allows supercruise but still gulps a lot of fuel, for Su-35 it is okay, but for a F-22 class aircraft it is not

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Yeah, I see your point regarding supercruise. No fighter in the PLAAF arsenal is capable of supercruise. Su-35 can do to an extent. But they can also learn lessons from the TVC integration with the FBW in the Su-35. Su-35 also ditches the canards of the previous Su-37/30MKI. Currently there is no info on any TVC based high-altitude flight test programs in the PRC carried on J-10 or J-11. There have been plenty of ground test but the Russians flew the Su-37 in 1996.

@b787 ... please instead of throwing again Your bias around; do Your homework first. However the supercruise is indeed a point !

b787 said:

Su-35 supercruises, the engine allows to do something no Chinese fighter currently does ...
However some sectors in Russia claim 117 is an old engine because type 30 is the real 5th generation engine.

...consequences of Showing their J-20 is flying with outdated engines and has no chance to catch up with F-22, and same is J-31, which is flying with outdated old MiG-29 engines on a heavier aircraft than Fulcrum

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1. You are mixing the 117 engine as used in the T50 - which indeed surprises me - with the 117S in the Su-35. As such ...

2. If the Su-35 per Your definition uses a supercruise-capale engine and we are now assuming by these latest reports that the J-20 uses an AL-31FM2-derivate, which is in fact nothing more than a 117S without TVC, so how can it be by Your own definition an "outdated engine" if both types are using the same one ????

b787 said:

The Russians know China will try to copy it, but they have one philosophy that s long as Type 30 is ready by 2020, ....

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And by that time also the Chinese WS-15 will be ready !

As such it makes IMO perfect sense to acquire the Su-35 most of all due to their TVC in order to prepare the PLAAF and its pilots to use this tool.

Deino

Due to the on-going IMO very interesting but by now far off-topic (since no longer Su-35-related) discussion on the AL-31FN and its version in Chinese use, its application and mystery surrounding the version used by the J-20 I start a new thread separated from the Su-35-discussion.

So please continue here:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/al-31f-fn-in-china-and-background.t8072/page-2

Deino

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