Chinese purchase of Su-35

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I believe there are quite a number of things China could learn from the Su-35, such as how the Russian handles advanced radar and information integration, and how they achieve super maneuverability with advanced flight control. China may have similar system themselves but it will always help to see how others tackled the problem (to a certain degree, not that they will get all the source code and know-how). It may also give them more ideas on how to squeeze the most out of future J-11/15/16 variants. Last but not least, they will have a high-performance target to benchmark their own products with.

As for the engines, I'm sure they'd be interested to take a look and get some valuable knowledge about how the Russian develops a newer generation engine. But this may not be any more important then other aspects of things. I'm saying that because the development cycle for engine is very long, and it'd be way too late if they really wanted to use this to aid WS-15 development (if that is the case then this deal would not have dragged so long). Every different turbonfan is a tightly integrated system that its parts could not be easily interchanged, given that newer Chinese engines are not based on the same core and configuration of the 117s, there won't be much they could take from it and apply on current projects.
But, there are things about those engines that the PLAAF and PLAN have not accomplished yet, and would like to dearly learn how to do.

This would be a great opportunity to do so...among other things that you also listed.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think it is pretty straight forward.

35 SU-35s is not going to make a huge difference in the overall balance of things, especially when the Chinese are putting aircraft like the J-20 out, the J-16, the J-11D, J-10C, etc., etc.

I believe what the Chinese really want are those engines...and Russia is desperate enough for the business and the money to make the sale...knowing full well that the Chinese will dive into those engines, figure them out in detail, and help their own engine development program.

But those are just my thoughts on the matter.

I used to believe that too but the more the delay the less logical it becomes from a capability gap standpoint. while the 117 is a very good engine, China's turbofan industry and material science have had exponential leap in capabilities even in the past 5 yrs. it would've made perfect sense had they acquired the 117s couple years ago but now with deliveries assumed to be 2018-2020 it's probably for other reasons. I'm pretty sure by 2020 the likes of shenyang liming etc would have the ability to produce equilavent engines even if just prototypes.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I used to believe that too but the more the delay the less logical it becomes from a capability gap standpoint. while the 117 is a very good engine, China's turbofan industry and material science have had exponential leap in capabilities even in the past 5 yrs. it would've made perfect sense had they acquired the 117s couple years ago but now with deliveries assumed to be 2018-2020 it's probably for other reasons. I'm pretty sure by 2020 the likes of shenyang liming etc would have the ability to produce equivalent engines even if just prototypes.
I'm not so sure...the super cruise for example. The thrust vectoring. Many areas of durability and efficiency that the Chinese have not quite gotten to yet. Perhaps they will by 2020...perhaps not.

...and as the other poster, superdog, commented, there a re also other capabilities that the SU-35 has that would be worthwhile for the Chinese to get their hands on seeing how the Ruskies went about doing what they do.

Anyhow, I believe that a purchase of 35 Su=35s by China is going to include some technology sharing in it one way or the other. Otherwise, in their line up, it simply does not make sense. The J-20, the J-16x the J-15x, the J-10x, etc., etc. that the Chinese are putting out are effective aircraft, particularly in numbers and oupled with their newer sensors and weapons.

Do not get me wrong...I do not think any of them can stand toe to toe with the F-22...or the F-35 once her capabilities are maximized on a one on one, or even somewhat tilted scale.

But quantity has a quality all its own, particularly when that quantity itself is reaching up into the 4.5+ gen, with very well trained and capable pilots.

...and the Chinese are definitely getting there.

Quite frankly, I feel the same about the Su-35 itself. I believe a F-22 will take it...but in the hands of a very well trained pilot, it is going to be a threat and dangerous just the same.

ANyhow, the J-20 is even more so IMHO...but it does need a better engine...and the Russians have some.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Which is why I said the earlier the faster they get their hands on them the more sense it makes and vice versa. Based on all the speculations I've seen so far it appears that Russia is more willing to sell than China is willing to buy .. At least to me anyway.

Just like any other transaction if you have a very willing seller deals can be easily made. I think China can easily get their hands on the 117S and some ToT if they'd really wanted to but that has not happened thus far. It would not be far fetch for China to get a couple samples of the 117S as far back as 2014 if they inked the 24 ship agreement as Rostec keeps implying. Russian scientist and engineers are not exactly known to work purely within the confines of their own border for the right price even with the blessings of Putin.

This is a very strange 'deal' if you ask me especially considering China has been a stable importer of Russian arms and technologies for many decades now!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Which is why I said the earlier the faster they get their hands on them the more sense it makes and vice versa. Based on all the speculations I've seen so far it appears that Russia is more willing to sell than China is willing to buy .. At least to me anyway.

Just like any other transaction if you have a very willing seller deals can be easily made. I think China can easily get their hands on the 117S and some ToT if they'd really wanted to but that has not happened thus far. It would not be far fetch for China to get a couple samples of the 117S as far back as 2014 if they inked the 24 ship agreement as Rostec keeps implying. Russian scientist and engineers are not exactly known to work purely within the confines of their own border for the right price even with the blessings of Putin.

This is a very strange 'deal' if you ask me especially considering China has been a stable importer of Russian arms and technologies for many decades now!
Agreed...it has been and remains strange.

I will still only believe it is truly a "done" deal when the Chinese announce the aircraft being on their soil with pictures of them there in Chinese markings.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Agreed...it has been and remains strange.

I will still only believe it is truly a "done" deal when the Chinese announce the aircraft being on their soil with pictures of them there in Chinese markings.

EXACTLY! and while I was an early proponent, as it gives China capability "right now" rather than a decade down the road?? it sure has been through the grinder, and nothing of substance to show??
 

b787

Captain
China Acquires Vicious 1,553MPH Su-35 Multirole Fighter Jets From Russia © Photo: JSC Sukhoi Company

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE 21:22 17.09.2016(updated 06:17 18.09.2016) Get short URL 3610627993 The first four Su-35 fighter jets from a 24 aircraft arms deal between the two allies are to be delivered before the end of the year according to a statement by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant. This week the governor of Khabarovsk Krai, a federal area located in the Russian Far East, said in a statement during the opening of a new aircraft production plant that China will receive the first four Russian-made Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighter jets in consideration of a 24 aircraft deal between Moscow and Beijing signed in November of 2015. From 2016 to 2018, the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production plant will build and deliver a total of 24 Su-35 combat jets to China, the governor said according to RIA news agency as part of the agreement first forged between the parties in late 2015. The Diplomat explains that the "the Su-35 is a Fourth++ generation, twin-engine, highly maneuverable multirole fighter jet powered by two AL-117S turbofan engines. The Russian aircraft’s powerful turbofan engine is also the most likely reason why China is interested in acquiring Su-35 fighters." The fighter jet has a maximum speed of 1,553 MPH (2500kmh) with advanced dry thrust and afterburner capabilities that enhance the aircraft’s dogfight maneuverability and semi-stealth design that makes it possibly the most lethal fighter jet in the sky. The Su-35 is Russia’s top air-superiority fighter, until the fifth-generation PAK-FA stealth fighter comes into production, with a clear maneuverability edge over existing fighter jets and a limited radar cross section after adjustments were made to the engine inlets and canopy as well as a series of modifications including the use of “radar-absorbent material” that gives the flanker a stealth-like profile The fighter jet comes armed with K-77M radar-guided missiles with a range of over 120 miles (193km) providing pilots with standoff capabilities ensuring pilot protection, an R-74 infrared-guided missiles that allow for targeting by a pilot using a helmet-mounted optical sight, and a thirty-millimeter cannon with 150 rounds for dogfight battles. The acquisition of the Su-35 by the Chinese is a major boon for the country’s defense as well as its avionics industry. China has worked to produce its own turbofan akin to the Su-35’s, known as the WS-10 turbofan, but it continues to underperform the Russian-made AL-117S. If China is able to reverse engineer the technology they may be able to rapidly overcome their avionics gap with the West.

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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member

...
The first four Su-35 fighter jets from a 24 aircraft arms deal between the two allies are to be delivered before the end of the year according to a statement by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant.
...

Indeed a first quite hard report about these birds since some time and if they are indeed at the production line - and since there are only three more months left before 2016's end - I think they should - if this report is true - be at quite an advanced state of manufacturing ?

So, when will we see a first Su-35 in PLAAF colours ?? Ready for Zhuhai ??

Deino

PS: By the way, what do they want to say, the Su-35 is a "1,553MPH fighter" ????
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
So, when will we see a first Su-35 in PLAAF colours ?? Ready for Zhuhai ??

Deino
Exactly.

Perhaps there will be four SU-35s in Chinese hands by the end of this year.

I will only believe it when the Chinese make an OFFICIAL announcement themselves and I see SU-35s in PLAAF colors.

Accoding to this "According to a statement," statement...we should know within three months.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Exactly.

Perhaps there will be four SU-35s in Chinese hands by the end of this year.

I will only believe it when the Chinese make an OFFICIAL announcement themselves and I see SU-35s in PLAAF colors.

Accoding to this "According to a statement," statement...we should know within three months.
I read similar report sometime ago and decided not to post at SDF due to obvious reason. I replied to the report that I will only believe when I actually see Su-35 flying in PLAAF color.
 
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