Chinese purchase of Su-35

Blackstone · Nov 29, 2015

tphuang said:
Your last 2 points have nothing to do with tech transfers and they are along the line of China throwing Russia a bone. 83 million is a lot of money. It's more than twice what China pays for J-10.
J-20 and J-16 airframes have already been developed. They can't use Su-35 anymore. Chinese avionics is ahead of Russia, so they don't need ToT for Russian avionics, although I suppose Irbis is a quality radar, so it helps to study its design. China already have access to all the Russian weapons, which missiles haven't got they got their hands on? The major piece of tech they look for Su-35 is 117S. Su-35 to China is an interim solution and they've good experience in the past signing deals with Russia and getting quick deliveries. Like Su-30MKK project, I'm sure they've spend a long time discussing every bit of details on what they want on Su-35. I would be surprised if they don't start getting it in the next 2 years.

So, maybe a deal in the works for 117S ToT?

taxiya · Nov 29, 2015

Blackstone said:
So, maybe a deal in the works for 117S ToT?

If I understand correctly FADEC is part of the aircraft's software package of all stealthy jets and many latest jet fighters. So for 117S to be useful for J-20's early deployment, the Russians would have given the source code and related information of the control machenics, performance data etc.

This to me is a ToT, it also signifies the change of Russian altitude to China in terms of millitary cooperation, it is a big one.

My only doubt for this argument is that J-20 is approaching LRIP which means the flight control software is nearily settled. That means that if 117S is there for J-20, it would have been available to China since 2010 before the maiden flight because one can not just switch the engine and rewrite the control program while doing flight test. Here comes my doubt, Russian position of closer cooperation with China on stratigical level only began recently, the last two years perhaps.

plawolf · Nov 29, 2015

ToT isn't likely enough discussed.

Radar and avionics wise, Russia has nothing to interest China for ToT.

China will gladly take a peek under the hood of the latest Russian radars for the same reason the US would love to do the same - to get a better understanding of Russian capabilities.

They might well learn something new from looking at the radars, but the Chinese are at the stage where they can easily figure it all out themselves without needing the Russians to go a step-by-step guide.

Similarly, the 117S hasn't really got much tech China doesn't already have or know. In fact, the WS15 should be more advanced and better in almost all areas.

The only plus with the 117S is that it is available now. China will likely just buy a few hundred as an interim engine for the J20 rather than use AL31s to give those birds a nice performance boost while they wait for the WS15 to be ready.

b787 · Nov 29, 2015

Jura said:
for comparison the price of Su-34 for the Russian Air Force is about one billion Rubles which is about 15 million USD ... but I promised I won't post here anymore, so, again, I'm sorry, over, out.

Jura i think there is a mistake somewhere in your calculations, an F-15 and F-18 are aircraft in the range of USD$35-60 million Dollars,

See that is an old MiG-29 from Ukraine

For pilot, Russian MiG-29 is $6 million dream come true
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

a new one is more expensive around 45 million a piece

India has about 45 MiG-29K which have cost the exchequer $2.4 billion (over Rs. 13,200 crore). A squadron each will be positioned on board INS Vikramaditya and the indigenously-made aircraft carrier - INS Vikrant - that is expected to be launched on July 12, 2013. Till then the planes will fly from Goa.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So you can calculate the Su-35 quoted price of USD$83-85 millions to be correct

b787 · Nov 29, 2015

tphuang said:
Your last 2 points have nothing to do with tech transfers and they are along the line of China throwing Russia a bone. 83 million is a lot of money. It's more than twice what China pays for J-10.
J-20 and J-16 airframes have already been developed. They can't use Su-35 anymore. Chinese avionics is ahead of Russia, so they don't need ToT for Russian avionics, although I suppose Irbis is a quality radar, so it helps to study its design. China already have access to all the Russian weapons, which missiles haven't got they got their hands on? The major piece of tech they look for Su-35 is 117S. Su-35 to China is an interim solution and they've good experience in the past signing deals with Russia and getting quick deliveries. Like Su-30MKK project, I'm sure they've spend a long time discussing every bit of details on what they want on Su-35. I would be surprised if they don't start getting it in the next 2 years.

The idea that China is ahead in Avionics has no proof and no evidence, Irbis is understimated because is PESA Radar, but

The emitter of 20 kW peak power within the PPAA makes "Irbis" the world's most powerful radar control system.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I am not underestimating China`s capabilities, but only telling you the same people who were saying the Su-35 had nothing to offer have been proven wrong.

China has AESA radars, but so does Russia, the difference is their military budget, China has been implementing their development of different priority programs, Russia has AESA radars on SAMs, the AESA Nebo radar coupled to the S-400 offers you a system that is much more effective than a J-10/J-11 and even Su-35, because the system use lower frequencies that make common stealth treatment iuseless and the detection and effective range of the SAM makes the AESA on a J-10 or the Speed of Su-35 less effective than the SAM system overall, that is why Russia sent S-400s to Syria and they did not send Su-35s

tphuang · Nov 29, 2015

b787 said:
The idea that China is ahead in Avionics has no proof and no evidence, Irbis is understimated because is PESA Radar, but

I am not underestimating China`s capabilities, but only telling you the same people who were saying the Su-35 had nothing to offer have been proven wrong.

China has AESA radars, but so does Russia, the difference is their military budget, China has been implementing their development of different priority programs, Russia has AESA radars on SAMs, the AESA Nebo radar coupled to the S-400 offers you a system that is much more effective than a J-10/J-11 and even Su-35, because the system use lower frequencies that make common stealth treatment iuseless and the detection and effective range of the SAM makes the AESA on a J-10 or the Speed of Su-35 less effective than the SAM system overall, that is why Russia sent S-400s to Syria and they did not send Su-35s

Even if disagree that China is ahead in avionics, I can assure you that it has been a long time since China saw need to get ToT from Russia for avionics. That's a fact. Please refer to the original post i was responding to.

I will say this about Irbis, China did some testing on this back in around 2008 with it according to JDW. They liked it, but it was never to the point where they saw the need to just upgrade their J-11 fleet with it or rush into a purchase of Su-35.

As for whether or not China will get Tot for 117S, I really doubt it. They were very close to get it for AL-31F, but settled with getting probably the most complete MRO facility for it outside of Russia. Knowing that and the number of 117S that they need, it probably doesn't make sense. I think getting some 117S for J-20 and other Chinese flankers will probably happen. It's possible that Russia would not allow China to put 117S on their own fighter jet unless they purchased Su-35. But that's something a person with my knowledge would not know.

In the end as I said, PLAAF saw Su-35 as something that gave good performance boost to their fleet of flankers while J-20 achieves full combat potential. That's why they pulled the trigger.

Brumby · Nov 29, 2015

The way I see it, the SU-35 purchase is plan B being kicked into gear for the J-20 program. The WS-15 engine was always a difficult proposition in terms of delivery timeline. The SU-35 negotiations was a fall back plan in the event that the indigenous engine development doesn't come in on schedule. The tide waits for no one, and the show must go on. The 117S engine will have to make do as an interim solution to keep the J-20 going. China is not in the charity business. Having the knowledge to build and being able to build is not the same thing - not in the aircraft engine business.

Richard Santos · Nov 29, 2015

When one says

tphuang said:
Even if disagree that China is ahead in avionics, I can assure you that it has been a long time since China saw need to get ToT from Russia for avionics. That's a fact. Please refer to the original post i was responding to.

I will say this about Irbis, China did some testing on this back in around 2008 with it according to JDW. They liked it, but it was never to the point where they saw the need to just upgrade their J-11 fleet with it or rush into a purchase of Su-35.

As for whether or not China will get Tot for 117S, I really doubt it. They were very close to get it for AL-31F, but settled with getting probably the most complete MRO facility for it outside of Russia. Knowing that and the number of 117S that they need, it probably doesn't make sense. I think getting some 117S for J-20 and other Chinese flankers will probably happen. It's possible that Russia would not allow China to put 117S on their own fighter jet unless they purchased Su-35. But that's something a person with my knowledge would not know.

In the end as I said, PLAAF saw Su-35 as something that gave good performance boost to their fleet of flankers while J-20 achieves full combat potential. That's why they pulled the trigger.

In all honesty, the possibility that China might get into a conflict with the US or Japan has not been this high in many years either. This is not to say the risk of war is in absolutely sense high, just that it is higher than before. One adjusts the balance between buying off the shelf foreign tech and developing domestic tech based partly on how urgently the tech could actually be needed.

So the fact that China has not seen fit to buy Russian in the years past, and has chosen to develop domestic alternatives instead when the threats were less, does not necessarily mean Chinese technology had already equalled or surpassed Russian technology. China could well have chosen to accept a moderate technology gap in order to encourage domestic development when the threat of conflict was more remote. China could well be procuring Su-35 now because the increased possibility of conflict in the near future required an accelerated delivery of functioning tech to operational units.

SinoSoldier · Nov 29, 2015

b787 said:
The idea that China is ahead in Avionics has no proof and no evidence, Irbis is understimated because is PESA Radar, but

That statement is an example of something without proof or evidence.

b787 said:
China has AESA radars, but so does Russia, the difference is their military budget, China has been implementing their development of different priority programs, Russia has AESA radars on SAMs, the AESA Nebo radar coupled to the S-400 offers you a system that is much more effective than a J-10/J-11 and even Su-35, because the system use lower frequencies that make common stealth treatment iuseless and the detection and effective range of the SAM makes the AESA on a J-10 or the Speed of Su-35 less effective than the SAM system overall, that is why Russia sent S-400s to Syria and they did not send Su-35s

The Chinese also operate long-wavelength and ground-based AESA radars; in fact, that J-16's AESA radar is thought to be a L-band system that allows it to achieve extreme ranges. However, lower-frequency radars have trouble with tracking fast-moving objects, if I'm not mistaken, and hence both ends of the spectrum have their strong and weak points. The thing that separates China and Russia is that there are multiple Chinese institutes performing R&D on AESA systems, and subsystems for the PLAAF are selected via competition, whereas the same cannot be said for Russia or even most European countries. The Chinese have also deployed such systems longer, and on a wider variety of platforms, than has Russia.

kwaigonegin · Nov 29, 2015

Richard Santos said:
When one says

In all honesty, the possibility that China might get into a conflict with the US or Japan has not been this high in many years either. This is not to say the risk of war is in absolutely sense high, just that it is higher than before. One adjusts the balance between buying off the shelf foreign tech and developing domestic tech based partly on how urgently the tech could actually be needed.

So the fact that China has not seen fit to buy Russian in the years past, and has chosen to develop domestic alternatives instead when the threats were less, does not necessarily mean Chinese technology had already equalled or surpassed Russian technology. China could well have chosen to accept a moderate technology gap in order to encourage domestic development when the threat of conflict was more remote. China could well be procuring Su-35 now because the increased possibility of conflict in the near future required an accelerated delivery of functioning tech to operational units.

Agreed...or at the very least it was one of many factors considered in the procurement.

Chinese purchase of Su-35

Blackstone

Brigadier

taxiya

Brigadier

plawolf

Lieutenant General

b787

Captain

b787

Captain

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Brumby

Major

Richard Santos

Captain

SinoSoldier

Colonel

kwaigonegin

Colonel