Chinese purchase of Su-35

Deino said:

Thanks and indeed tphuang is one very rational one ... however IMO not only one, there are surely a few more tha come into my mind and that's what I like here in contrast to so many other forums.

I for myself, I'm surely most often to impatient and too much emotional enthusiastic ... so that I sometimes loose a clear mind.

Anyway - and regarding German music, ... I prefer the Classis !

Deino

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everyone at times is emotional, i like more German electronic music and Kraukrock, and some bands like Corvus Corax and Cultus Ferox but my two favorite bands are Tangerine dream and Love is colder than dead, i have to admit Germany has really good music, and of the Classics Bach is the greatest for me.

I mean do not worry is just an airplane, i like it is true, but is just a machine.
I like jet aircraft like Ar-234 because they resemble the He-111, He-177, He-277, Ju-288, Me-264 and Ju-388.


Any way a machine is only judged by its effectiveness, but since i hate war, i prefer civil aviation, recently i like more aircraft like the Superjet-100, C-series or C919

Blackstone said:

Any word on ToT with the Su-35 purchase?

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there is no ToT, the jets are made in Russia, there is speculation it might add some chinese subsystems but i doubt it, Kret reported even very basic avionics are Russian

tphuang said:

And I don't like some posts here about how this is China throwing a bone to the Russians.

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That is simply a display of arrogance by some posters. The SU-35 is a frontline plane of the Russians and at least should be accorded the respect it deserves.

I think if China can get the 117S from this Su-35 contract, it is possible that the engine will be put in J-11D, and not into the J-20 first batch. As J-20 seems ready to start her first mass production soon.

Brainsuker said:

I think if China can get the 117S from this Su-35 contract, it is possible that the engine will be put in J-11D, and not into the J-20 first batch. As J-20 seems ready to start her first mass production soon.

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J-11Ds are using WS-10s exclusively.

Brumby said:

That is simply a display of arrogance by some posters. The SU-35 is a frontline plane of the Russians and at least should be accorded the respect it deserves.

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I agree... but at the same time much of the coverage by mainstream defence media have portrayed a purchase of Su-35s as somehow leaps and bounds ahead of what China currently has in its arsenal or what it may soon have in its arsenal. A lot of the coverage in recent years seems to still believe the Chinese air force is in the early 2000s rather than 2010s, and over the years that arrogance has created a strong sense of defensiveness among posters here against the prospect of an Su-35 purchase.

Overall, I think both sides should appreciate the capabilities of the Su-35 and agree that it is currently qualitatively superior to any fighter aircraft in Chinese military service that has reached FOC...

However both sides should also appreciate the vast advances in domestic fighter technology China has made and the numbers of advanced fourth generation fighters in service, and just as important is the quality and quantity of force multiplier aircraft in serivce, not to mention other advanced domestic fourth+ generation aircraft on the cusp of reaching FOC in a year or more that will likely be highly competitive with if not superior to Su-35 in some respects. Then combine all those factors with the well known Chinese military drive for full indigenization. All together, that makes the purchase of such a small number of qualitatively competitive Su-35s far less influential in terms of overall capability for the overall Chinese Air Force order of battle and naturally leads to some confusion as to the potential drivers for the purchase.

I believe the ideas I listed in post 1442 are an accurate and comprehensive portrayal of all the likely drivers behind the purchase, and that they should probably all be taken together when trying to rationalize the purchase.

Brainsuker said:

I think if China can get the 117S from this Su-35 contract, it is possible that the engine will be put in J-11D, and not into the J-20 first batch. As J-20 seems ready to start her first mass production soon.

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I think we should all hold our horses a little as to whether China will actually want to use the Su-35 purchase to have 117S engines for its other fighters.
Personally I think adding 117S onto J-11D is a needless modification that will probably complicate its development with minimal gain in capability... however initial batch of J-20s may benefit from 117S installed.

Or maybe the Air Force won't bother with 117S on its own aircraft at all, who knows.

Bltizo said:

... however initial batch of J-20s may benefit from 117S installed.

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I think this scenario has a better fit in terms of program timeline and quantity requirement. The next phase of flight testing with the J-20 would benefit from a more powerful engine (as a interim solution) until the required indigenous engine becomes available.

Brumby said:

I think this scenario has a better fit in terms of program timeline and quantity requirement. The next phase of flight testing with the J-20 would benefit from a more powerful engine (as a interim solution) until the required indigenous engine becomes available.

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It is definitely plausible, and one that should be open to consideration.

That said, in explaining the Su-35 purchase I think it would be useful for everyone to keep an open mind about a range of possible reasons that may have worked together to drive the purchase, rather than a single or two reasons that dominate.

Bltizo said:

I think we should all hold our horses a little as to whether China will actually want to use the Su-35 purchase to have 117S engines for its other fighters.
Personally I think adding 117S onto J-11D is a needless modification that will probably complicate its development with minimal gain in capability... however initial batch of J-20s may benefit from 117S installed.

Or maybe the Air Force won't bother with 117S on its own aircraft at all, who knows.

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China will get additional 117s, you might speculate the extra engines will be used on other fighters, the question is if the contract will allow it

The deal, announced last week by Russian defense conglomerate Rostec, makes China the first foreign contractor of the multi-role Sukhoi Su-35 (main picture), an upgraded and highly maneuverable fighter jet. While the deal has yet to be confirmed by Beijing, Russian daily newspaper Kommersantquoted Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov on November 19 as saying: "The protracted talks on Su-35 deliveries to China have ended. We have signed the contract."

The agreement reportedly includes not only the supply of 24 jets to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) for a total of $2 billion ($83 million per unit) but also the delivery of ground support equipment and reserve aircraft engines. The first batch of the planes, with the NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is expected to be delivered next year.


It is nevertheless striking that the Russians ultimately agreed to the deal, despite their intellectual property concerns. So why clinch the deal now? Wezeman points out that China will probably not get technology transfers required for a local high-level maintenance center for the aircraft, thus making it more difficult for the Chinese to copy from the 24 units.

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