Chinese Engines Miss The Finish Line

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by antiterror13, Oct 12, 2011.

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  1. Engineer
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    No. He is telling you a fact, which is that WS-10 is based on technologies from CFM56. And no, it isn't simple, which is why WS-10's development took 20 years. This is common knowledge, and it is the reason that when foreign media circle-jerk WS-10 is an Al-31 copy, we laugh at them for not knowing sh*t.

    F-110 is developed from F-101's core. CFM56 is developed from F-101's core. WS-10 is reverse engineered from CFM56's core, which is the F-101's core. No one here claimed that WS-10 is CFM56, only that WS-10 has heritage with CFM56.

    Whether you believe or not isn't going to alter the truth.

    China got CFM56 before Al-31. Design work of the WS-10 also precede the acquisition of Al-31. Thus, WS-10 being a copy of Al-31 is actually illogical.
     
  2. Quickie
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    The fact is they did extend the lifespan of the AL-31 according to this article. Now if they can extend the lifespan of the AL-31, there's no reason the newer design WS-10A will not at least match that lifespan. In fact more likely the WS-10A will exceed it. The problem they were, at one time, having was production issues which has nothing to do with the design of the engine. One of the reasons, imo, they made the decision of not retrofitting the J-10 / older flankers is that it's cheaper and less hassle to continue using the AL-31F engines. The WS-10A still needs to be modified to a version with a different gearbox position for the J-10, not to mention the aft fuselage of the J-10 / older flankers (including for example the engine's holding brackets) would need to be modified to fit the newer engine.

     
    #52 Quickie, Oct 13, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  3. MiG-29
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    That is not true, changing the compressor combustor part of a CFM56 into a lower by pass afterburner is not easy in fact copy the compressor combustor without any technical documentation and tooling is highly difficult.

    To start they needed to fill the blanks in metalurgy, second without a jet engine model for a fighter, turning a combustor compressor of an airliner is too dificult, in 10 years is alost impossible unless you copy the basic AL-31 and china send guys like Moo to collect information on foreign fighter engines.



    In fact copying the Al-31 is the logical step, they had the engine, they had some basic technical knowledge,and it is the engine they need to replace, so studing it is the fist step, in fact they can even use parts for the WS-10 taken dirtectly from the Al-31


    there is no reason the chinese won`t study and copy the Al-31 engines.
     
  4. Deino
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    But they got the AL-31 simply AFTER the CFM-56 and WS-10 development started ... !
     
  5. Engineer
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    You are not making any sense. First, the core of the engine refers to the high pressure compressor, combustor, and high pressure turbine. The "compressor combustor part" as you call it has nothing to do with "lower by pass afterburner", and there is no such thing as low bypass afterburner. Secondly, China did not modify a CFM56 into a low bypass engine, so your assumption that this took place is fundamentally wrong. What China did is reverse engineered the core of CFM56 and design the WS-10 around that. It is a highly difficult process, which is why it took China some 20 years from start to having a flyable prototype.

    Which China did as China can produce single crystal blades.

    There are two things that are wrong here. First, the core of CFM56 is a partial model of a low-bypass military jet engine. This is the primary reason why the designers of WS-10 decided to reverse engineer the core of CFM56. Secondly, China took 20 years, not 10 years, from having nothing to a flyable prototype.

    Except it isn't a logical step, because it simply isn't true. WS-10 has heritage from CFM56, not Al-31.

    Which has nothing to do with the fact that WS-10 is related to CFM56.
     
    #55 Engineer, Oct 13, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  6. MiG-29
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    PAK FA uses two types of engine a new type 15 or 25% more powerful than the 117S named type 30 and has been tested already on T-50
    В трудные для российского авиапрома годы, авиастроительные фирмы, производившие военные самолеты выжили за счет экспорта, прежде всего в Китай и Индию. Сегодня китайцы скопировали наш "Су-27" и сами готовы продавать его на мировом рынке по демпинговым ценам. Не потеряем ли мы в результате наши традиционные рынки боевых самолетов?

    — Не потеряем, потому что такого самолета как у нас, у китайцев нет и в ближайшее время не будет! Они говорят, что сделали самолет 5-го поколения, но говорить можно что угодно… Их лучший двигатель скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". У нас же действительно двигатель 5-го поколения, и он по всем своим параметрам, по тяге, по удельному расходу топлива соответствует 5-му поколению. Я приоткрою тайну и скажу, что у нас фактически уже есть два двигателя 5-го поколения. Второй, который сейчас условно называется "тип 30", уже испытывался в полете на истребителе "Т-50". В дальнейшем ему, наверное, дадут имя "АЛ-…". По своим параметрам он на 15-25 процентов превосходит "117-й

    During the difficult years for the Russian aircraft industry, aircraft building company that produced military aircraft survived by exports, especially in China and India. . Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. Not whether we lose as a result of our traditional markets of combat aircraft?

    Do not lose, because such an aircraft as we do, the Chinese have no time soon will be! They say that the plane made ​​the 5-th generation, but you can say anything ... They are the best engine copied from our "AL-31F. We also do engine 5-th generation, and it is in all of its parameters on traction, in specific fuel consumption corresponds to the 5-th generation. I opened the secret and say that we actually already have two motors 5-th generation. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 ". In the future it probably will give the name of "ALAccording to its parameters it a 15-25 percent greater than "117 th

    http://bohn.ru/news/otrasl_dvadcat_let_razvalivali/2011-05-28-526

    http://www.russia-today.ru/tema-nomera/2394-nash-otvet-brazilcam.html
    interview to Vicktor Chepkin Russian engine designer
    First Deputy General Director of JSC "NPO Saturn" R & D & D - General Designer Victor CHEPKIN.


     
    #56 MiG-29, Oct 13, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  7. Engineer
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    Which contradicts with the fact that WS-10 is related to CFM56, thus he does not have accurate information.
     
  8. MiG-29
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    MiG-29 Banned Idiot

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    but that is no reason not to copy and study the Al-31, tell me why not copy it?

    what is the technical reason?
     
  9. MiG-29
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    скопирован с нашего "АЛ-31Ф". why he say that?

    why not copy the Al-31? do china has technical knowledge of F-110? does Pakistan have F-110 engines or F-101?

    Moo was caught in the US why?
     
  10. Engineer
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    Because they are already copying the core of CFM56. Studying the Al-31 is not copying. Studying the Al-31 and reverse engineer the core of CFM56 at the same time are not mutally exclusive.
     
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