Chinese Engine Development

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Pardon and again I hope not to offend anyone. Can we stay realistic???

These "equivalent to F15 engines" however are around in the US since the late 1970s and from where the hell do you come to the conclusion that "upgraded WS10s reach the F22 engine’s performance"???

Not sure if some are so much blinded by wishfull-thinking or what they are smoking, but to compare a WS-10XYZ with roughly 140kN (thrust to weight ratio of 7.5:1) with a F119 with +155kn (thrust to weight ratio of 9:1) and this again is not a new engine.

:mad:

The point is that baseline WS10 class engines are used everywhere in the world, making up frontline 4 gen and 4.5 gen. Some people here are making it sound like there’s something wrong with it.

WS-10G variants have 152kN thrust.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
The point is that baseline WS10 class engines are used everywhere in the world, making up frontline 4 gen and 4.5 gen. Some people here are making it sound like there’s something wrong with it.

WS-10G variants have 152kN thrust.

Where is the WS-10G? Officially the WS-10 ranges from 120 kN to 140 kN. WS-10IPE might be 140 kN upwards. Hypothetically, let us say WS-10G with 152 kN exists. What is the dry-thrust? Supercruising happens without the afterburner. P&W F119 dry thrust is about 100 kN. F135 is about 120 kN. Saturn 117S is at 86 kN (117 value is unknown). According to wiki Izd.30 dry thrust is high has 108 kN but citation not given.

USAF is also very tricky when it comes to releasing actual values. Official USAF website still puts the AIM-120 range as 20+ miles. F119 categorized as a "35,000 lbs class engine". Actual values differ.
 

jobjed

Captain
Do you have a source on improved Izd 30 parameters? Most sources I’ve seen puts it behind both F135 and WS-15.

China doesn’t really do high bypass since the Air Force doesn’t favor large bombers at all. Even the H6K replacement is rumored to be smaller in size. Russia has a lot of expertise here, but it’s not in the PLAAF doctrine. Of course, that can change and Russia would be an excellent partner to explore builds with.

It’s super misleading to say there is a generation gap with “the world”. There’s exactly one power that can claim to have an engine one generation ahead of China, and that’s America. And they’re one generation ahead of everyone else as well (at least until the WS15 and Izd 30 finishes). It’s more factual to say that US is ahead of everyone else.

Even America runs on mostly older engines.

Baseline WS 10s are equivalent to F15 engines and make up the lions of share of PLAAF just like F15s make up USAF.

Upgraded WS10s reach the F22 engine’s performance, but until recently lacked TVC.

Until the WS-15 comes online, there is no equivalent to F35 engines in China.

The almighty “generational gap” only extends to a handful of F35s.

What Russia has going for it is building better nuclear submarines than everyone else

The Izd.30 evaluation I read from Maya's CJDBY account. I can't find the exact link atm but I remember the general gist of his evaluation.

All premiere engine manufacturers have a generational lead over China right now. The Europeans are flying the EJ200, US flying the F119, YF120, and F135, and Russia flying the Izd.30. All of them have TWR of 9-10. It's very accurate to say the world has a generational lead over China today. It's a gap I foresee closing when the WS-15 starts flying but that is probably still a couple years away. Countries not on the list are nobodies, incapable of creating their own turbofan and not worthy of mentioning in a comparison with China.

You are right that the generational gap is not strategically fatal, J-20s with 4th-gen engines can face F-22s with 5th-gen engines adequately; it's what their airframe was designed to do from the beginning, but you cannot deny there is an engine generational gap. Fortunately for China, even if the US rushes ahead with 6th-gen engine development, they won't have a good airframe to put it in. An F-35 with a 6th-gen engine will still be an F-35, nothing that a J-20 can't handle.

High-bypass turbofans are of greater long-term importance to China than the WS-15. If the CJ-1000A and CJ-2000 are realised in a timely manner and possess the stated performance, it would be a massive boon to Chinese engine development both military and civilian going into the rest of the century. The Chinese government cannot always be haemorrhaging money by subsidising the engine industry, they need to find their own legs and achieve organic profitability like the shipbuilding industry. You only have to look at the fate of the USSR and current state of US shipbuilding for examples of what happens when industry loses their competitive edge and begins to rely on government handouts. In that regard, the Russians with the PS-90 and PD-14 are considerably ahead and are in a better position to allow their industry to thrive without government funding...... if they had a domestic market that is, which they don't, so they're kinda screwed even though they have engines. But at least they have engines which is more than can be said for AECC right now.

Upgraded WS-10s will never reach F119 performance, they'll barely reach F110-GE-132 performance due to inherent limitations with the design. The high bypass ratio of the WS-10 was a compromise measure to offer sufficient thrust at the cost of high-altitude performance. The turbine inlet temperature of the WS-10 is also higher than usual for 4th-gen turbofans making it more difficult for Liming to achieve a long lifespan which is bad news for a country that was already weak in materials science. The WS-10 architecture really is subpar when compared to its peers, however, it's the only war-ready 4th-gen design China has right now so we'll make do. Despite shortcomings, China is better off today for having chosen a flawed 4th-gen core as the WS-10 basis than a safe and optimised 3rd-gen like the AL-21 or TF30; I shudder to imagine a 2018 China that started 4th-gen development late and is still ten years away from maturing a 4th-gen turbofan. China also had no other choice in the 80s when the CFM56-2 core was chosen, the only alternatives were AL-31 and F100 both of which were inaccessible at the time. If Deng was insistent on ambitious performance specs (he was), it was either use the CFM56 core or create a core from scratch. 1980s China was definitely not capable of creating a 4th-gen engine core from scratch so CFM56 it was. Now that China has the luxury of initiating blank-sheet designs, I doubt the WS-10 situation of inadequate future-proofing will happen again.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The point is that baseline WS10 class engines are used everywhere in the world, making up frontline 4 gen and 4.5 gen. Some people here are making it sound like there’s something wrong with it.

WS-10G variants have 152kN thrust.


Again more wishful thinking than reality BUT: Please don't get me wrong and I don't want to down rate the WS-10 at all, but first it is as explained by @jobjed below never the same technical standard as its competitors and where the hell do you get that the WS-10G is said to have reached 152kN?? At least by my information this was never mentioned; at least not from reliable ones..... in fact it sounds very much like the WS-15 is a 190-240kN engine invented by some fan boy at the PDF.

So again the WS-10 is a decent engine, a milestone of Chinese engine development but surely not a 4.5 gen engine as you like to imagine.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Again more wishful thinking than reality BUT: Please don't get me wrong and I don't want to down rate the WS-10 at all, but first it is as explained by @jobjed below never the same technical standard as its competitors and where the hell do you get that the WS-10G is said to have reached 152kN?? At least by my information this was never mentioned; at least not from reliable ones..... in fact it sounds very much like the WS-15 is a 190-240kN engine invented by some fan boy at the PDF.

So again the WS-10 is a decent engine, a milestone of Chinese engine development but surely not a 4.5 gen engine as you like to imagine.

The 152kN claim was from this article

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While the WS10 doesn’t use all optimal solutions, it is proven that it fulfills it’s job.

I don’t think for a second baseline WS10s are 4.5 gen, but it would be denialist to say the upgraded ones aren’t. The maneuvers they can make are the sort of stuff only 4.5++ and 5 gen can do.

Correct me if it’s wrong, but it should be possible to significantly upgrade an engine with an older core. Isn’t the Izd 30 an AL41 variant which itself is an AL31 variant?
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The 152kN claim was from this article

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Pardon again ... and you believe in a report from 2009 even if it is against everything we know since then??


Correct me if it’s wrong, but it should be possible to significantly upgrade an engine with an older core. Isn’t the Izd 30 an AL41 variant which itself is an AL31 variant?

No; You are wrong. It's a new clean sheet design.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
The Izd.30 evaluation I read from Maya's CJDBY account. I can't find the exact link atm but I remember the general gist of his evaluation.

All premiere engine manufacturers have a generational lead over China right now. The Europeans are flying the EJ200, US flying the F119, YF120, and F135, and Russia flying the Izd.30. All of them have TWR of 9-10. It's very accurate to say the world has a generational lead over China today. It's a gap I foresee closing when the WS-15 starts flying but that is probably still a couple years away. Countries not on the list are nobodies, incapable of creating their own turbofan and not worthy of mentioning in a comparison with China.

You are right that the generational gap is not strategically fatal, J-20s with 4th-gen engines can face F-22s with 5th-gen engines adequately; it's what their airframe was designed to do from the beginning, but you cannot deny there is an engine generational gap. Fortunately for China, even if the US rushes ahead with 6th-gen engine development, they won't have a good airframe to put it in. An F-35 with a 6th-gen engine will still be an F-35, nothing that a J-20 can't handle.

High-bypass turbofans are of greater long-term importance to China than the WS-15. If the CJ-1000A and CJ-2000 are realised in a timely manner and possess the stated performance, it would be a massive boon to Chinese engine development both military and civilian going into the rest of the century. The Chinese government cannot always be haemorrhaging money by subsidising the engine industry, they need to find their own legs and achieve organic profitability like the shipbuilding industry. You only have to look at the fate of the USSR and current state of US shipbuilding for examples of what happens when industry loses their competitive edge and begins to rely on government handouts. In that regard, the Russians with the PS-90 and PD-14 are considerably ahead and are in a better position to allow their industry to thrive without government funding...... if they had a domestic market that is, which they don't, so they're kinda screwed even though they have engines. But at least they have engines which is more than can be said for AECC right now.

Upgraded WS-10s will never reach F119 performance, they'll barely reach F110-GE-132 performance due to inherent limitations with the design. The high bypass ratio of the WS-10 was a compromise measure to offer sufficient thrust at the cost of high-altitude performance. The turbine inlet temperature of the WS-10 is also higher than usual for 4th-gen turbofans making it more difficult for Liming to achieve a long lifespan which is bad news for a country that was already weak in materials science. The WS-10 architecture really is subpar when compared to its peers, however, it's the only war-ready 4th-gen design China has right now so we'll make do. Despite shortcomings, China is better off today for having chosen a flawed 4th-gen core as the WS-10 basis than a safe and optimised 3rd-gen like the AL-21 or TF30; I shudder to imagine a 2018 China that started 4th-gen development late and is still ten years away from maturing a 4th-gen turbofan. China also had no other choice in the 80s when the CFM56-2 core was chosen, the only alternatives were AL-31 and F100 both of which were inaccessible at the time. If Deng was insistent on ambitious performance specs (he was), it was either use the CFM56 core or create a core from scratch. 1980s China was definitely not capable of creating a 4th-gen engine core from scratch so CFM56 it was. Now that China has the luxury of initiating blank-sheet designs, I doubt the WS-10 situation of inadequate future-proofing will happen again.
Great post. When do you see the gap China has with leading nations in this field closing fully? 2025? 2035? 2049? It's incredibly maddening and frustrating that for all the progress China has made elsewhere, crucial fields like this and semiconductors remain inadequately developed.

I'm assuming that China's won't transition into a fully fifth-generation air force before mid-century at the earliest. Given that fourth-gens will be in service for decades to come, would it be worth redoing the WS-10 properly now, i.e., a clean sheet design for an effective and reliable engine in the 7-8 TW class?
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Supercruising happens without the afterburner. P&W F119 dry thrust is about 100 kN. F135 is about 120 kN.
Not as simple!
F-135 has much higher bypass ratio(main source of increased thrust, but this thrust is achieved at lower speeds and altitudes), so higher "maximums" don't mean as much as it seems. But since f-35 pursue pricetag instead of supersonic combat, it was a reasonable trade off.

P.s. and, btw, great and important detail by Hyperwarp: while WS-10 ain't cutting edge, it still exists and allows for a modern airforce. As well as being a good starting point to go further.
On the other hand, China has little to offer in high bypass sphere at all.
High bypass ratio users include: flying command centers(including doomsday planes), maritime patrol planes, fuel tankers, awacs, elint... and many more types of planes you reasonably can not expect to safely fly with western engines.
These are just as important as fighters, because current usage of low bypass-powered modified transport planes is ... not without downsides, to say at least.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
I'm assuming that China's won't transition into a fully fifth-generation air force before mid-century at the earliest. Given that fourth-gens will be in service for decades to come, would it be worth redoing the WS-10 properly, i.e., a clean sheet design for an affordable and reliable engine in the 7-8 TW class?
No. They might as well just adapt a fifth generation engine or some derivative.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
This would indicate a common engine design for final production as opposed to simply building separate engines a la PD-35 or CJ-2000.
I seriously doubt this interpretation "merging two projects to one" regardless how close China and Russia are.
China is not going to give up the independence of own engine building capability, regardless cooperation with whom. If there is going to be a merging, China will make sure to be able to freely utilize every bits of technology in that merged product in later development. That is although a 50/50 joint venture, China will have 100 right to use the outcome. China does not mind if Russia acquire 100% right as well (to be fair, Russia should), but China must. Question is, does Russia accept this kind of deal? What do you think?

Another thing is, China has employed MTU in CJ-1000AX who may continue in CJ-2000. There is IP issues involving Germany. The designs (PD and CJ) may be different in many areas. Is China going to give up what's learnt in CJ-2000 to continue finance PD-35 path? I seriously doubt. If China and Russia decide to incorporate CJ-2000's tech in the merged product, is it ok with Germany?

My interpretation of the agreement between Russia and China is that China invests in PD-35 program (which I have heard from Chinese BBS as well). But PD-35 and CJ-2000 remains separated tracks. This works for both sides, everyone owns the portion of right to PD-35 according to the share of involvement.
 
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