Chinese Engine Development

I

Inst

Captain
It's 15; if it's an even number it's less stealthy, and if you set up parallel lines on nozzle petals, you'll notice that with 14 petals the perspective doesn't match. See the attached image.

On the left image, you have 15 petals, with a gap at the top matching the bottom petal. So perspective is blocking a barely visible side petal to the right of the bottom petal.

cat.jpg
 
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I

Inst

Captain
I really forgot this wretched tramp (瘪三). This vectored (矢量) nozzle (喷口) can also be put on the J-20 (20).

If you can't get it working, use a radical dictionary to look up the character, then wiktionary or any of the assorted online Chinese dictionaries to translate given terms.

In other words, according to Gongke101, he's claiming that the vectored nozzle being tested on the J-10B is not the WS-15's vectored nozzles; he's using a derogatory term for the picture (or possibly the artist).
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Via Lkj86
WS-10
img-e75da3e3fab38c7275faecc46fc8b2f5-jpg.496794
img-0c855850b551c6cc13834d4a0e574b57-jpg.496795
img-5e4f203729976eb8fba78b75ec92bfa4-jpg.496796
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Inst said:
I really forgot this wretched tramp (瘪三). This vectored (矢量) nozzle (喷口) can also be put on the J-20 (20).

If you can't get it working, use a radical dictionary to look up the character, then wiktionary or any of the assorted online Chinese dictionaries to translate given terms.

In other words, according to Gongke101, he's claiming that the vectored nozzle being tested on the J-10B is not the WS-15's vectored nozzles; he's using a derogatory term for the picture (or possibly the artist).
Click to expand...
You are right on the bold texts.
Also remember that Gongke101 said "this TVC nozzle CAN ALSO be put on J-20" in the second half of his sentence, that implies there may be more than one TVC nozzle designs.

This means, if you believe Gongke101, you would admit that when you see J-20 mounted with non WS-10/AL-31 in the future, it could just be this TVC on J-10B which is NOT WS-15. In other words, you have no way to confirm future J-20 is mounted with WS-15 by just looking at photos.

I kind of feeling that you on the contrary insist that it is likely (more than other members do) WS-15 being on J-20A than any variant of WS-10.

Can I conclude that you refute gongke101's conclusion?
upload_2018-9-5_20-47-9.png
 
W

Wakingbake

New Member
Registered Member
China Improves WS-15 Engine to Enable Mass Production of J-20 Stealth Fighter
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22:01 05.09.2018(updated 22:40 05.09.2018)Get short URL
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The engine issues preventing Beijing’s J-20 stealth fighter aircraft from entering mass production have been remedied, the South China Morning Post reports.

The engines previously became too hot when the aircraft flew at high speeds. Ground tests and trial flights have now been successfully completed with the proper WS-15 engine, the report noted. Mass production of the aircraft will start by the end of 2018.

1065726945.jpg

© PHOTO : PUBLIC DOMAIN / U.S. NAVY
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A source claimed there are "minor problems" with the engine that have yet to be ironed out, but technicians expect solutions when the engine is more "extensively run in the aircraft," the Post reported.

According to Next Big Future, the US will maintain some 200 to 300 F-35 aircraft in the Indo-Pacific region by the middle of the next decade, leading China to desire a J-20 fleet of at least 200. Beijing sees the J-20 as one of its most capable jets, one that can compete with US F-35s and F-22s, according to South China Morning Post.

Until the roll out of the improved WS-15s, China was stuck using less-powerful WS-10 engines or dated Russian AL-31F engines, which were first seen on the Soviet Union's Su-27 fighters in 1981.

Having "a home-grown engine is a must for the J-20 to enter mass production, as no other country would be prepared to give China such cutting-edge technology," a source told the Post.

1059662196.jpg

© AP PHOTO / KAMRAN JEBREILI
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An analysis published in Sputnik News last month claimed that the F-22 Raptor was "
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" to the J-20, primarily as a result of the US jets' afterburning turbofan G199-PW-100 engines. Those engines have the ability to point the rear vector of the engine in different directions, enabling the aircraft to perform maneuvers at speeds faster than sound. "With the new addition of the Chinese WS-15 turbofan," Sputnik News noted, which has now reportedly cleared a major hurdle, "power parity may not be far off."
 
I

Inst

Captain
@taxiya:

First, thank you for being polite.

Regarding Gongke101, the important thing, I think, is that he's "ambiguous", i.e, he often gives indirect communications to which the conclusions are your responsibility. Considering that he's discussing material that could get him arrested or fired, this is absolutely understandable.

Second, I neither "refute" nor "accept" Gongke101's claims. He's one data point, and an ambiguous one at that. You collate his information together with other information. My problem with Latenlazy et al is that he's trying to convert a multiplicity (Gongke101's claims can mean many things) to a singularity.

As far as this goes:

Hypothesis 1: The J-10B nozzle is not the J-20 WS-15 nozzle.

Hypothesis 2: The J-10B nozzle is a J-20 WS-15 nozzle, but the nozzle Gongke101 saw isn't TVC.

As far as the preponderance of evidence goes, Hypothesis 1 is preferred, but Hypothesis 2 is still worth floating (i.e, considering, but not supporting without additional evidence).


====

Also, @ taxiya, at this point, I've gone through like 20-50 J-20 nozzle pictures. In no case can I confirm 15 elements on the J-20's nozzles; if I had better tools, I could estimate the nozzle count using the circular shape.

There are some reports that suggest the WS-15 has already entered testing on the J-20, but these are low-reliability reports, not strictly untrue like Strategypage claiming that the J-20 has an F-15-like wing area, but ones improbable without further corroboration.
 
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gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
There were rumours, back when the J-10C was under development, of a J-10 version with a WS-10 including a TVC nozzle. So I expect this to be either a TVC or LO nozzle for a WS-10 family engine. I doubt it's the WS-15 engine. From claims I've heard here and elsewhere the WS-15 got larger during the design stage and is not 100% physically compatible with the WS-10. So any airplane which now uses the WS-10 should require a redesign of the airplane to use the WS-15. The J-20 airframe is likely an exception to this. It should have been designed taking into account this issue. If you look at pictures of the J-20 from the top it looks like there are large empty spaces around the initial engines. but I doubt the WS-15 can fit into a basic J-10.
 
S

sangye

New Member
Registered Member
Wakingbake said:
China Improves WS-15 Engine to Enable Mass Production of J-20 Stealth Fighter
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Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

22:01 05.09.2018(updated 22:40 05.09.2018)Get short URL
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
160


The engine issues preventing Beijing’s J-20 stealth fighter aircraft from entering mass production have been remedied, the South China Morning Post reports.

The engines previously became too hot when the aircraft flew at high speeds. Ground tests and trial flights have now been successfully completed with the proper WS-15 engine, the report noted. Mass production of the aircraft will start by the end of 2018.

1065726945.jpg

© PHOTO : PUBLIC DOMAIN / U.S. NAVY
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



A source claimed there are "minor problems" with the engine that have yet to be ironed out, but technicians expect solutions when the engine is more "extensively run in the aircraft," the Post reported.

According to Next Big Future, the US will maintain some 200 to 300 F-35 aircraft in the Indo-Pacific region by the middle of the next decade, leading China to desire a J-20 fleet of at least 200. Beijing sees the J-20 as one of its most capable jets, one that can compete with US F-35s and F-22s, according to South China Morning Post.

Until the roll out of the improved WS-15s, China was stuck using less-powerful WS-10 engines or dated Russian AL-31F engines, which were first seen on the Soviet Union's Su-27 fighters in 1981.

Having "a home-grown engine is a must for the J-20 to enter mass production, as no other country would be prepared to give China such cutting-edge technology," a source told the Post.

1059662196.jpg

© AP PHOTO / KAMRAN JEBREILI
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An analysis published in Sputnik News last month claimed that the F-22 Raptor was "
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
" to the J-20, primarily as a result of the US jets' afterburning turbofan G199-PW-100 engines. Those engines have the ability to point the rear vector of the engine in different directions, enabling the aircraft to perform maneuvers at speeds faster than sound. "With the new addition of the Chinese WS-15 turbofan," Sputnik News noted, which has now reportedly cleared a major hurdle, "power parity may not be far off."
Click to expand...

Please don't post articles from yellow journalism sites like Sputnik News, you're just wasting bytes
 
I

Inst

Captain
Sputnik News got their information from NextBigFuture, which got their information from Minnie Chan of the SCMP. At the end of the day, the question is whether or not you believe Minnie Chan has access to quality Chinese sources and is responsibly using them.
 
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