Chinese Engine Development

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Something potentially interesting: I'm pretty sure that maya/aliasmaya now posts as vce on cjdby. So far, I haven't come across him writing anything totally new or unknown, other than mentioning 2025 as a target for the WS-15.
A couple of threads he's posted in:
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Pretty sure it's Maya; his old avatar was of a Russian girl and his new one seems to be similar. The name is interesting too. VCE also stands for variable cycle engine, something that has been researched quite extensively among Chinese academic journals. Could the WS-15 be a VCE engine?

Anyways, several interesting points ...
  • The high bypass WS-15 core variant has a corrected airflow of 35 kg/s
  • WS-15 has a 6-stage high pressure compressor
  • He also states "试验科目就多了,总的分成地面台架试车和高空台模拟试车两大类,首飞前的整机试车估计需要两三千小时吧" in response to someone asking him how much longer will it take before first test flight.
 
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Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Good find. His writing style certainly reminds me a lot of maya, though I guess we may never know for certain.
Pretty sure it's Maya; his old avatar was of a Russian girl and his new one seems to be similar. The name is interesting too. VCE also stands for variable cycle engine, something that has been researched quite extensively among Chinese academic journals. Could the WS-15 be a VCE engine?
Other than the profile pictures they both post about the same subjects (engines and transport aircraft) and both use the Cyrillic script for designations of Russian systems.
The WS-15 won't be a VCE, but the Chinese VCE will (probably) be developed from the WS-15.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Other than the profile pictures they both post about the same subjects (engines and transport aircraft) and both use the Cyrillic script for designations of Russian systems.
The WS-15 won't be a VCE, but the Chinese VCE will (probably) be developed from the WS-15.
Yes, the Cyrillic was a big tell for me too, as is his familiarity with the Russian gas turbine industry.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
So six stages for the HPC - does the pressure ratio of 6.0 mentioned in that core engine spec sheet some time ago still stand? If so it's a bit underwhelming for a 2025 engine, to be honest. That's the kind of performance the M88 has been delivering for about 30 years now (which was by no means the most impressive engine of its generation in this regard either, the EJ200 and F119 both perform significantly better).

For another point of reference, my reading of the chai leaves is that the Russian Izd. 30 core will achieve a PR around 7.0 (give or take 0.4 perhaps)... from 5 stages! The stage count is pretty much confirmed, the average stage pressure ratio is an extrapolation on my part based on progress demonstrated on other Russian engine projects (PD-14 HPC, AL-55 based proof of concepts etc.).
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
So six stages for the HPC - does the pressure ratio of 6.0 mentioned in that core engine spec sheet some time ago still stand? If so it's a bit underwhelming for a 2025 engine, to be honest. That's the kind of performance the M88 has been delivering for about 30 years now (which was by no means the most impressive engine of its generation in this regard either, the EJ200 and F119 both perform significantly better).

For another point of reference, my reading of the chai leaves is that the Russian Izd. 30 core will achieve a PR around 7.0 (give or take 0.4 perhaps)... from 5 stages! The stage count is pretty much confirmed, the average stage pressure ratio is an extrapolation on my part based on progress demonstrated on other Russian engine projects (PD-14 HPC, AL-55 based proof of concepts etc.).
It was around 6 in that early 2000s paper but sometime ago there was some talk that it might be up to 7.12 now. I’ve heard 7 from 5 stages for the type 30 as well, but I’ve also heard it being lower.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pretty much the only direct reference to Izd. 30 HPC pressure ratio to date is a recent disclosure by Salyut in connection with the engine's first flight. This stated 6.7 (so in my range of estimation, albeit at the lower end) but there are a couple of reasons to believe the figure might not necessarily reflect the final product.

Firstly, it's generally understood that the HPC is Saturn's responsibility (as is overall project leadership), secondly the mass flow specs quoted along with the pressure ratio don't match the range expected for the full size engine. Depending on whether you take them as referring to actual or corrected flow they indicate a sub-scale demonstrator or an AL-31FM2/3-class engine, either of which (in combination with the source being Salyut) would suggest they may rather apply to Salyut's losing bid in the initial competition for overall leadership of the project.

As for WS-15, 7.1 in a 6-stage HPC would be ok (it's worth mentioning in this context that if Salyut's quote refers to their AL-31FM2/3 compressor it would represent 6.7 from six stages) but still a bit lack-lustre. Even accounting for the fact that average stage pressure ratio drops slightly as you add stages to a given design it works out to a lower figure than the EJ200 (which in turn would be beaten by Izd. 30, even if we assume 6.7 is correct for that engine instead as it would then be done in only 5 stages). I suppose this would mirror the situation seen with the CJ-1000A and PD-14 quite nicely though.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
As for WS-15, 7.1 in a 6-stage HPC would be ok (it's worth mentioning in this context that if Salyut's quote refers to their AL-31FM2/3 compressor it would represent 6.7 from six stages) but still a bit lack-lustre. Even accounting for the fact that average stage pressure ratio drops slightly as you add stages to a given design it works out to a lower figure than the EJ200 (which in turn would be beaten by Izd. 30, even if we assume 6.7 is correct for that engine instead as it would then be done in only 5 stages). I suppose this would mirror the situation seen with the CJ-1000A and PD-14 quite nicely though.

It seems that even with the WS-15, china will continue to be considerably behind the US europe and russia regarding aircraft engines. But thats not unsurprising. They are starting from far behind. That is probably the reason that china bought the su-35. To get more engine tech.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Yeah like Japan buying the F-35 despite having their own stealth program. They couldn't come up with anything up to par.
Remarkable, isn't it? One user idly muses about the current value of a design parameter based on what it supposedly was in a two-decade old spec sheet, and suddenly China surely needs the Su-35 for its engines. A warp drive couldn't keep up these leaps in logic.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
If there is anything for China to learn from the 117S engine it would be about durability (4000h life, which is a big leap over the original AL-31F and probably any Chinese counterpart). Its turbomachinery is certainly not the latest and greatest Russia can come up with in terms of 3D aero or thermodynamic parameters and well within China's abilities as demonstrated on advanced WS-10 derivatives.
 
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