Chinese Engine Development

Engineer

Engineer

Major
tphuang said:
Chinese engine industry is clearly behind western companies like GE, P&W, RR, Safran. While it may pass Russians and Ukrainians in the future, it's also currently behind them. Saying that it's not behind these countries because it has a whole portfolio of products only means it has more projects. It's still behind those countries in terms of technology.
Saying England only makes sub assemblies is entirely laughable. Half of the wide body airliners use Rolls Royce engines.
Click to expand...
  • China is behind GE, P&W and RR, but China is also ahead of many others. Some people like to focus on the first half of that statement, lumping irrelevant nations with the top dogs then argue China is behind. That is laughable.
  • It is easy for Russians and Ukrainians to be ahead with Soviet hand-me-downs. Ukraine is no longer a player, for obvious geopolitical reasons. For Russia, the value of their Soviet materials is rapidly diminishing, but the country has not truly proved itself. Even Dmitry Rogozin said recently that Russia has not tested a new aircraft engine in 29 years!
  • Having a large portfolio is absolutely vital. The current state of Russian naval industry can testify to that, now that Ukraine ceased supplying ... gas turbine engines. Suddenly, Russia doesn't appear to be so ahead. Putting things together only makes one an assembler. Being able to do everything from scratch is what distinguishes one as a master. Hence, the importance of a portfolio.
  • RR being just a supplier of sub-assemblies to F-135 engine is an accurate description. It is not a poo-poo on RR. Other than to save a few bucks, it made no difference to the United States, as the country possesses all the links in the chain already.
 
Last edited:
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Engineer said:
  • China is behind GE, P&W and RR, but China is also ahead of many others. Some people like to focus on the first half of that statement, lumping irrelevant nations with the top dogs then argue China is behind. That is laughable.
Click to expand...
This is a key point. And it is an aspect that many in this ongoing argument missed that LEADs to the mudding the question, or what is the question?

China is behind U.S. absolutely, behind U.K. in terms civilian surely, but who else? I am not sure. The crux is who exactly is China behind in exactly what area?

There is no country named "the west" or "Japan + west". Hanging up with somebody doesn't make one higher on the rank.

Once again, taking in national pride and camps or alliance just led to meaningless mess.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys ... I deleted nearly 8 pages of post regarding Japanese medium thrust engines, US super-duper high-thrust engines like F119 & F135, several Russian projects including videos ... and a strange discussion regarding several European items ... all mixed up by things I don't like and very much off-topic !

STOP, NOW ! ... tread closed until all cooled down a bit,:mad:

Deino
 
GreenestGDP

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Deino said:
I would highly question this report, since it simply can't be that they were testing five different engines on five different J-20s ! That would be plain stupid and even more so many different suitable but different engines are simply not available ... at least not in China. ... ...
Click to expand...


1) I am no expert, thus I can not explain much.
I am not thinking along the line of 5 different engines Core Structures.
I am thinking in terms of using the same Core Structure or almost equivalent Core Structure, but using different ... ...

1) Different Blades materials and Different Coating,
2) Different Blades Maximum Temperature and Blades Cooling Speed
3) Different Blades Outer Geometric Shaping
4) Different Blades Inner Structures ( using Additive Manufacturing )
5) Different Blades Weight
6) Different Blades Maximum and Minimum RPM ( Revolution per Minute )
7) Different Time required in terms of achieving certain threshold engine RPM

Hence, all the above Blades varieties and variables require different Speed and Volume of Air intake entering the DSI. Thus, they require different DSI bump geometric shaping. --- Not, just simply the different light conditions when those pictures were taken.

===

What about the engine flame color ?
Anything significant in the flame color ?

Have you ever seen an AL-31F engine or any other engine producing similar ( Yellow Outer ring + Bluish Middle Flame ) color ??
 
Last edited:
GreenestGDP

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
I agree that Russian Saturn is unlikely to be one who produce different Blades model.

Those engine Blades installation are modular ( or somewhat Plug and Play ). Right ?

I am thinking those different Blades model are produced by China AVIC themselves. Whenever, there is new materials breakthrough or whenever there is new Additive manufacturing method breakthrough ( after testing the Blades on the ground ), AVIC will apply the new Blades on the equivalent Turbofan Core Structure, and test them in the air.



Rolls Royce Engine Blade
Engine--Blade--1a.png




New Materials Breakthrough from AVIC division ( in Mandarin )
Source:
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
GreenestGDP said:
I agree that Russian Saturn is unlikely to be one who produce different Blades model.

Those engine Blades installation are modular ( or somewhat Plug and Play ). Right ?

I am thinking those different Blades model are produced by China AVIC themselves. Whenever, there is new materials breakthrough or whenever there is new Additive manufacturing method breakthrough ( after testing the Blades on the ground ), AVIC will apply the new Blades on the equivalent Turbofan Core Structure, and test them in the air.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but that is ridiculous !

You really think Chengdu / AVIC orders AL-31FN at Saturn and then designs and manufactures different parts on its own in order to modify them as mentioned above, dis-assembles the original engines, adds the new ones, also develops five different intake configurations and then test them all on five different J-20 prototypes .... sorry if now I'm getting rude, but did You smoke anything special ???

Deino
 
GreenestGDP

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
@ Deino,

Because of your countless positive contributions to PLA watching everywhere, I will never consider anything coming from you is rude.
So you can fire away and be as rude as you like. No problem, I can handle them all in stride. :D :D

Perhaps, you are having a bad day in your Chemistry class.
Believe it or not, I am also trying to atone and apologize for all offensive remarks coming from Beast and Economic Superpower to you.
They are being offensive and being ignorant, not knowing your honorable and just characters.

Also, I am NOT trying to do any Nationalistic chest thumping, and I am not being argumentative.
I am just stating facts from what I know and learn along the way.
I am hoping that someone who is much more knowledgeable than I do can / will logically explain the facts and I can elevate my knowledge to the next level.

NOTE: Unfortunately, thread on PRC Engine development is still closed. ... ...

===

Given the 5 factors below ... ...

1) The PLAAF achilles heel of military Turbofan engine is the Compressor Blade vulnerability when the operating temperature is approaching the underlying metal alloy Melting temperature while rotating under tremendous Centrifugal force.

2) The famous AL-31F Engines Maintenance and Overhaul plant is located in ChengDu, not that far from ChengFei CAC.

3) Installing and Uninstalling Compressor Blades from the disk are relatively easy, because they are slided on and locked, and they are not welded.

4) New technological breakthrough in Additive Manufacturing method ( Cold / Thermal Spray / DDM ), and technological breakthrough in Engine Blade Material or Engine Blade Ceramic coating.

5) New technological breakthrough in Cooling the Engine Blades.


Assuming AL-31Fx engines are used on J-20s, ... ...
Why does it not making sense ... ...to experiment with different homegrown engine blades that are superior than the default built--in Saturn engine blades ??

===

PLAAF Engines Maintenance and Overhaul Plant in ChengDu
Pictures were taken by XinHua almost 6 year ago, in June 2010

Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2a.jpg


Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2g.jpg


Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2c.jpg


The ChengDu Engine plant above had been able to reduce the total time required to disassemble and reassemble the AL-31F by 27.3%, and increase the AL-31F service life by 66.66%, Both of these feat had been achieved at least 6 years ago.

Do you think --- How much more performance improvements have they been making since 2010 ?
 
Last edited:
tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
As I said before, that article about increase life to AL-31F to 1500 hours is a propaganda piece. Nothing Chengdu did was all that impressive. There are literally hundreds of articles like that posted about Chinese aviation industry every years. As for whether or not AL-31F in service with PLAAF gets Chinese engine blades after going through the maintenance and overhaul facility in Chengdu. We know that they do, because that's what happens in these facilities. As for whether or not they intentionally send them there for the purpose of experimenting new engine blade to improve AL-31F over the original, there is no evidence that happens. These rampant speculations without source is not helpful and takes subject off topic. Please post these things in the engine thread if you have more theories, but please provide some source to support them.
 
GreenestGDP

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
NOTE: Unfortunately, the thread on PRC Engine development is still closed.

The source for AL-31F engine improvement story was from XinHua.
If you think XinHua * PLAAF Engines Maintenance and Overhaul Plant in ChengDu breakthrough and improvements story was all propaganda, and just pure fantasy, then you surely think Shenzhou vessels docking with Taikong 1 story was also pure propaganda and pure fantasy.

Source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



PLAAF Engines Maintenance and Overhaul Plant in ChengDu
Pictures were taken by XinHua almost 6 year ago, in June 2010

Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2j.jpg



Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2n.jpg


Were they searching for internal hairline crack ?

Engine--Maintenance--Overhaul--Plant 5719--2k.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top