Chinese Economics Thread

[taxiya]

I like your distinction between "constructive" and "destructive" criticism and the idea that the latter can also be useful. I do not disagree with this. Recently I read an excellent book by Pankaj Mishra, "From the Ruins of Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia" that looks at the various intellectual responses in non-western nations to western power, some "constructive" and some "destructive". The book focuses on three figures in particular, Jamal al-Din Al-Afghani, Liang Qichao, and Rabindranath Tagore, but features a rich supporting cast also. The value of the book, in my opinion, is in highlighting the relationships between various modes of thought expressed in disparate societies with unique experiences.

Nonetheless, I do not think the linked article has any value as "destructive" criticism either. Its claims are either wrong/stupid (e.g. the focus on absolute rather than proportional growth), reiterating the obvious and universally acknowledged (e.g. ongoing issues with corruption, sanitation, etc.), or so vague as to be analytically useless (e.g. the idea that India lacks "reason").

The article is useful for those looking to have their own sense of cultural superiority affirmed, and that is about it. Most here will be well acquainted with similar articles in western publications about China -- that is to say, articles that are less concerned with understanding and engaging with China than in reinforcing a message of ongoing western superiority and Chinese inferiority -- and it is unfortunate that they cannot recognise the same material when it is directed at others.

Thanks for the information about the book and the three names. Something I will be studying. Tagore is well known among the well-educated mainland Chinese of my generation. I strongly hope the young Chinese today widen eyes on people like them, instead of JUST Warren Edward Buffett or Bill Gates etc.

To be honest, I did not read the linked article, so I can not say anything about it. However the highlighted texts does look very similar to Bo Yang's criticism of Chinese traditions. That is why I sensed that the Indian author shared something with Bo Yang.

I can not comment on your last paragraph. Admittedly I have seen such Chinese that you described (accepting western view on other non-western people but rejecting the same view on Chinese). BUT I sincerely doubt that is the case here about members like Hendrik (who posted that link) as I assume he is knowledgeable from me reading his past posts. I will not and did not intend to get in between you and him, nor did I try to defend him.

Let's continue with the topic about economics. BTW, I do appreciate you providing some insights about Indian (south Asian)'s social, cultural and economy developments and history, either in this thread or in a separate one, I am interested.

Cheers.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I think that's debatable.

Most Chinese men ordinarily do not find black women attractive (and I think the reverse is probably true as well), but China has made investments in Africa a top priority, and this has resulted in a lot of Chinese men marrying African women.

Perceptions of beauty change over time, even in an individual.

For example, in my late teens and early twenties, my taste in women was mostly shaped by the mainstream media, so I really liked blondes and had little interest in asian girls. Then I met my wife, and to my surprise, I found that I began to find asian girls more and more attractive, while my previous interest in blondes began to wane.

Right, of course there are multiple other factors than attraction that fuel cooperation and investment, but attraction is one of them. Africa is just so rich in natural untapped resources, it'd be a crime to ignore it. However, what kinds of investment are we seeing and how much? We see China basically doing deals with Africa in that we take their natural resources, and in return, we build for them infrastructure. A trade, but not like some Western investment in China were people want to move their companies there, learn Chinese, live there, have their children develop there etc... And, most of these deals are Chinese state-run companies that send someone to oversee huge deals, decisions made by old people who will never have to execute any of their own orders, deals made thinking only of the economic benefits to China (as it should be). Very few private Chinese small businesses choose to set up shop in Africa and of those that do, it was because the merits were absolutely tremendous over the next option. I have never heard of a Chinese business moving to Africa because they had many similarly-valued choices in China, SouthEast Asia, etc... but chose Africa because they thought that would be a great place to be. We see stories about when Chinese move to Africa and marry an African wife, and reason they are stories is because it is so abnormal. Most Chinese see their time in Africa as a business transaction to complete as quickly as possible before going home. How many stories do you see of a western businessman going to China for business and then settling down, marrying there? Not so many, because it's so common, it's a non-story.

 

[advill]

This is a Chinese Economic Thread, and I will focus on important issues related to the Global Trade, Economy & their effects on Regional Security. The saying goes that "When big elephants make love or fight the smaller guys make way otherwise, they may get trampled". This is similar to the US Super Power & China the Rising Super Power. China's Premier Li Kegiang recently warned the US that "a trade war would benefit nobody". This is factual, and it is time for both big countries sit down and discuss problems and negotiate sensibly for win-win solutions. The medium sized & smaller countries hope that rhetoric are only rhetoric, and that the practical and realistic members of the Trump Administration & the ruling Republican Party will be "all ears" for serious discussions/negotiations with China, & not resort to megaphone "diplomacy", quite common in the West. Another serious and important issue, and hopefully to be resolved in June under the ASEAN Chairmanship of the Philippines, is the implementation of the long outstanding rulings on the South China Sea "Code of Conduct" (COC). The COC should be discussed and implemented ASAP by the US, China and with the territorial waters claimant countries (Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam & Brunei).

The real shooting WAR might start in South & East Asian Regions - as Banon, the senior advisor to the White House (NSC) and confidant to President Trump was quoted to have remarked that "In 5 - 10 years, the US will be at war with China". This is blatant arrogance & like all damaging rhetoric it should henceforth stop. The global & regional environments look bleak as of now, with potential Trade War followed by a Shooting War. Historians and sensible leaders will know that both are closely linked and have happened in past wars & hositilities. Do we them to happen?

 

[Equation]

The arrogance of the Bannon types just need to get over themselves that the world is changing and there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[vincent]

@Hendrik_2000
Most people dont realise that GDP growth is based on local currency and for India is in Rupee which has fallen significantly against USD .. in 2013 1 USD equal ~ 55 INR .. and now in 2017 1 USD ~ 67 ... or INR has fallen 22% since 2013

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The same thing for Chinese Yuan 6.2 in 2013 and now 6.9 or roughly 11% down

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So even economy growth in India slightly higher than China in the last 3 years ... actually in USD ... Chinese had higher economy growth

Meaningless. Much of the world's commodities (raw and processed) and final products are priced in USD. Lower Rupee to USD exchange rate only means the Indian are poorer, regardless how much GDP advanced when calculated in Rupee. Any exportable raw materials or products from India will be priced in USD simply because they can be sold on the world market instead of selling to Indians at a lower price

 

[Blackstone]

Much of the world's commodities (raw and processed) and final products are priced in USD. Lower Rupee to USD exchange rate only means the Indian are poorer, regardless how much GDP advanced when calculated in Rupee. Any exportable raw materials or products from India will be priced in USD simply because they can be sold on the world market instead of selling to Indians at a lower price

Good points, and you're both right and wrong. If dollar-rupie exchange rates change from productivity gain/loss, then US/India is richer/poorer relative to the other. However, if exchange rates move because investors seek currency haven, then the dollar-based gains are artificial and India may not be poorer as its currency will recover after market forces drive down the artificially strong dollar.

 

[vincent]

Good points, and you're both right and wrong. If dollar-rupie exchange rates change from productivity gain/loss, then US/India is richer/poorer relative to the other. However, if exchange rates move because investors seek currency haven, then the dollar-based gains are artificial and India may not be poorer as its currency will recover after market forces drive down the artificially strong dollar.

If you believe in the efficient market theory, then the exchange rate should reflect the economic fundamentals of both economies

Anyways, my points deal with the GDP numbers calculated in USD and the numbers do reflect the wealth of the nations and the actual growth

 

[Blackstone]

If you believe in the efficient market theory, then the exchange rate should reflect the economic fundamentals of both economies

All mainstream economic theories recognize market distortions that temporarily affect exchange rates. The distortions are unstable and typically short in duration. I believe we're seeing that right now and the dollar is artificially high due to investors seeking currency haven.

Anyways, my points deal with the GDP numbers calculated in USD and the numbers do reflect the wealth of the nations and the actual growth

GDP only show economic activities and not actual wealth of countries. Your thesis was Indians are poorer, relative to Americans if the rupee weakens relative to the dollar. My antithesis is that's not necessarily so, especially in cases where the exchange rates are distorted by investor actions based not on productivity gains/losses, but on anticipating or overreacting to geopolitical events.

 

[Lethe]

Perceptions of beauty change over time, even in an individual.

Indeed they do; I know mine have. They have broadened in concert with greater exposure to other cultures. My theory is that we begin with crude conceptions (where our concepts shape what we perceive), and these are steadily refined as more examples are brought to bear, and the utility of the original crude conception diminishes. For example, the first time we see someone who registers as "different" to us, we register that difference and little else, e.g. that person is "Chinese". By the time we have met fifty people from China we have not only become much better at noticing the differences between them, but the original label of "Chinese" has become less useful for us, and at this point we our mental concepts are more selective, e.g. ethnicity, personality, mannerisms, hairstyle, etc. And as our concepts become more refined, we are in effect becoming better at "seeing" people, such that once where we merely registered someone as "Chinese" (or "black" or whatever) we now register them in all aspects of their person, we draw closer to their humanity. And the ability to perceive beauty comes about during this process.

 

[tphuang]

Let's cut out this beauty standard discussion and get back on topic.