Chinese Economics Thread

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Its not cheating, they are simply taking advantage of loop holes in the law, ...though in China's case lowered income tax for the average employee(not the rich) is beneficial to the economy.

Hmmm I think you are confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion.

Futhermore surely having a official lower tax rate would be more equitable for the people then leaving it up to the companies and Im rather surprised that you don't see the dangers in such false accounting practices.eg it makes embezzlement by senior management so very easy.

I missed this bit when I first read the article, the the writer Shawn Rein, towards the end wrote, "Deceptive accounting of income is so widespread that the government has announced plans to tax some business expenses in state-run enterprises-"
 
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nameless

Junior Member
Hmmm I think you are confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion.

You seem to not understand what is illegal under Chinese tax laws.

Futhermore surely having a official lower tax rate would be more equitable for the people then leaving it up to the companies and Im rather surprised that you cant see the dangers in such false accounting practices.eg it makes embezzlement by senior management so very easy.

I did not say that I support the current tax law, which is why I pointed out the loop holes in the law.
These are similar methods which are technically legal. Is google and others using false accounting? Is it illegal?

Google, the owner of the world’s most popular search engine, uses a strategy that has gained favor among such companies as Facebook Inc. and Microsoft Corp. The method takes advantage of Irish tax law to legally shuttle profits into and out of subsidiaries there, largely escaping the country’s 12.5 percent income tax. (See an interactive graphic on Google’s tax strategy here.)

The earnings wind up in island havens that levy no corporate income taxes at all. Companies that use the Double Irish arrangement avoid taxes at home and abroad as the U.S. government struggles to close a projected $1.4 trillion budget gap and European Union countries face a collective projected deficit of 868 billion euros.

Countless Companies

Google, the third-largest U.S. technology company by market capitalization, hasn’t been accused of breaking tax laws. “Google’s practices are very similar to those at countless other global companies operating across a wide range of industries,” said Jane Penner, a spokeswoman for the Mountain View, California-based company. Penner declined to address the particulars of its tax strategies.

Facebook, the world’s biggest social network, is preparing a structure similar to Google’s that will send earnings from Ireland to the Cayman Islands, according to the company’s filings in Ireland and the Caymans and to a person familiar with its plans. A spokesman for the Palo Alto, California-based company declined to comment.

The tactics of Google and Facebook depend on “transfer pricing,” paper transactions among corporate subsidiaries that allow for allocating income to tax havens while attributing expenses to higher-tax countries. Such income shifting costs the U.S. government as much as $60 billion in annual revenue, according to Kimberly A. Clausing, an economics professor at Reed College in Portland, Oregon.

The company, which tells employees “don’t be evil” in its code of conduct, has cut its effective tax rate abroad more than its peers in the technology sector: Apple Inc., the maker of the iPhone; Microsoft, the largest software company; International Business Machines Corp., the biggest computer-services provider; and Oracle Corp., the second-biggest software company. Those companies reported rates that ranged between 4.5 percent and 25.8 percent for 2007 through 2009.

Google is “flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they’re perpetrating evil under our noses,” said Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College in New York who has examined Google’s tax disclosures.

“Who is it that paid for the underlying concept on which they built these billions of dollars of revenues?” Briloff said. “It was paid for by the United States citizenry.”

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I missed this bit when I first read the article, the the writer Shawn Rein, towards the end wrote, "Deceptive accounting of income is so widespread that the government has announced plans to tax some business expenses in state-run enterprises-"

It basically says that new laws should be introduced, which proves my point that there are loop holes in the law, if it was illegal then there would be no need to introduce new laws.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
nameless
You seem to not understand what is illegal under Chinese tax laws.

Thats true I dont, thats why im astounded. But I stll think that you are comparing oranges with apples.

In China as it appears, we have litterally millions of individuals/ and companies, reducing theit tax liabilities by mis representing their costs eg writing of employees wages as fictional telephone bills etc, and you say the law allows them to do that? What happens if they get asked to produce copies of these bills for verification?

What Google and others are doing is equally dispicable, but on the surface of things, they are taking advantage of different countries tax rates, theres no mentionion of any fraud/or misrepresentation or falsified costs. Then again the company retains a bigger share of the profits for distribution to shareholders who pay taxes.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
IMO any government allowing allowing systemic tax cheating to such an extent that it becomes imbedded in the culture to do so, may be creating difficulties for itself decades into the future.

Actually, up to 2008, State revenue from all types of taxes, tariffs, fees, etc had been rising at the tune of 20-30% for a few years, because they have been closing the loopholes. They have actually been able to lower rates in many cases, and still increase revenue much faster than economic growth alone would allow. Of course, 2009 was different, but I think revenue growth is back on track this year.
 

nameless

Junior Member
Thats true I dont, thats why im astounded. But I stll think that you are comparing oranges with apples.

So you admit that you dont know, yet you are accusing me of compare apples to oranges, ok.

In China as it appears, we have litterally millions of individuals/ and companies

Where did you get these statistics on the number of companies and individuals?

, reducing theit tax liabilities by mis representing their costs eg writing of employees wages as fictional telephone bills etc,

Certain benefits to employees are exempt from gross income or have reduced taxation. For example tax for salaries range from 5% to 45% while bonuses are at 20%. You are trying to make a case of creating entirely fictional income statements as if that was legal in the first place.

What Google and others are doing is equally dispicable, but on the surface of things, they are taking advantage of different countries tax rates, theres no mentionion of any fraud/or misrepresentation or falsified costs. Then again the company retains a bigger share of the profits for distribution to shareholders who pay taxes.

Where does most of Google's income come from and why the need to move money around, is it a misrepresentation of income? And you are saying what they are doing is despicable yet it is somehow ok because shareholders are taxed(only as capital gains tax). Interesting standards.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
So you admit that you dont know, yet you are accusing me of compare apples to oranges, ok.

Ill rephrase it I meant I don't know what is considered illegal in China as regards income declaration, but i certainly know the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion in which falsely declaring costs would certainly be considered to be one in the west.




Where did you get these statistics on the number of companies and individuals?
Here

I got it from here. Surely 760 million economically active people would have produced a few million small private/business employing upwards of 1 person- (although rather dated, the whole article is worth reading.
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Population and Workforce
In 2003, the total population of China reached 1.292 billion (excluding Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, Macao Special Administrative Region and Taiwan Province). The population over the age of 16 was 998.89 million, of which the urban population was 423.75 million and the rural population 575.14 million; the economically active population was 760.75 million and the workforce participation rate was 76.2 percent. Among the population over the age of 16, the population with junior middle school education level and above took up 61.7 percent, and that with junior college education level and above, 6.6 percent. Among the population of technical workers, those of the elementary grade took up 61.5 percent, those of the intermediate grade, 35 percent, and those of the advanced grade, 3.5 percent.
Total Employment
In 2003, the total urban and rural employed population reached 744.32 million (see Chart 1), of which the urban employed population was 256.39 million, accounting for 34.4 percent (see Chart 2), and the rural employed population was 487.93 million, accounting for 65.6 percent. From 1990 to 2003, the employed population increased by 96.83 million, an average increase of 7.45 million per annum.
Employment Structure
As far as the employment structure is concerned, from 1990 to 2003 the proportion of those employed in tertiary industry rose steadily from 18.5 percent to 29.3 percent, with the number of employees reaching 218.09 million; the proportion of those employed in secondary industry remained at around 21.6 percent, with the number of employees reaching 160.77 million; and the proportion of those employed in primary industry dropped from 60.1 percent to 49.1 percent, with the employees numbering 365.46 million (see Chart 3). In terms of employment structure by urban and rural areas, from 1990 to 2003, the ratio of the employed in rural areas dropped from 73.7 percent to 65.6 percent. In terms of employment structure by different economic sectors, from 1990 to 2003, the number of employees in state-owned entities decreased by 34.7 million, down to 68.76 million; the number of those employed by urban individual and private economic entities increased by 35. 96 million, to reach 42.67 million, representing 46.5 percent of the newly employed in the urban areas in the same period. New forms of employment mushroomed, such as jobs in foreign-invested firms and economic entities of diverse forms, part-time jobs, temporary jobs, seasonal jobs, work on an hourly basis and jobs with flexible working hours, and became important avenues for the expansion of employment. ...........




Certain benefits to employees are exempt from gross income or have reduced taxation. For example tax for salaries range from 5% to 45% while bonuses are at 20%. You are trying to make a case of creating entirely fictional income statements as if that was legal in the first place.

Most countries have a graduated tax scale, however the gist at what im trying to say is" I didn't think it was good for a country in the long run by indirectly encouraging cheating on tax.


Where does most of Google's income come from and why the need to move money around, is it a misrepresentation of income? And you are saying what they are doing is despicable yet it is somehow ok because shareholders are taxed(only as capital gains tax). Interesting standards.
I think its a company's duty to return maxim profit to its shareholders, and if reducing its tax liability goes towards this purpose then I'm all for it even though it can be regarded as a despicable practice.

Meanwhile its not just capital gains, profits are returned to the shareholders by way of dividends which are then taxed by respective governments.

However I don't understand what you mean by misrepresenting it.
At this stage, I havent heard of "Google" being accused of understating its before tax profit as it moves this money from country to country.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Actually, up to 2008, State revenue from all types of taxes, tariffs, fees, etc had been rising at the tune of 20-30% for a few years, because they have been closing the loopholes. They have actually been able to lower rates in many cases, and still increase revenue much faster than economic growth alone would allow. Of course, 2009 was different, but I think revenue growth is back on track this year.

OK and i hope a well policed tax system is put in place, sometimes its not bad laws but poor enforcement. I was trying to portray a scenario involving China several decades from now where she might find the need to increase taxes. I think a country that allows tax rorting to underpin the economy might find it very hard to implement these changes. Just look at Greece and Portugal for example. I was listening to a BBc program, discussing the financial plight of Greece, where one of the hardests tasks for the Greek Govt was taxation reform because the people had become so reliant upon the practice of tax evasion, as it makes for the lack economic growth, with true wage increases.

Can you imagine the problem that would face China if 750 million workers oppose a massive tax hike to meet govt expenditure, started to protest.?
 
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nameless

Junior Member
Ill rephrase it I meant I don't know what is considered illegal in China as regards income declaration, but i certainly know the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion in which falsely declaring costs would certainly be considered to be one in the west.

What constitutes falsely declaring costs? Certain type of education, insurance, housing etc are all exempt from income tax.

I got it from here. Surely 760 million economically active people would have produced a few million small private/business employing upwards of 1 person- (although rather dated, the whole article is worth reading.

The point is illegal and false income statements not the number of businesses in China.

Most countries have a graduated tax scale, however the gist at what im trying to say is" I didn't think it was good for a country in the long run by indirectly encouraging cheating on tax.

Certainly not encouraging cheating like in Google's case through lobbying and secret pact with the IRS, in fact there are continuous reforms in taxation.

Threshold for individual income tax expects adjustment in 2011: report
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coming 12th Five-Year Plan (2010-15)
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China tweaks tax code on individuals' restricted-share transfers
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New tax on foreign firms starts Wednesday
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OK but i was trying to portray China several decades from now where she might find the need to increase taxes. I think a country that allows tax rorting to underpin the economy might find it very hard to implement these changes. Just look at Greece and Portugal for example. I was listening to a BBc program, discussing the financial plight of Greece, where one of the hardests tasks for the Greek Govt was taxation reform because the people had become so reliant upon the practice of tax evasion, as it makes for the lack economic growth, with true wage increases.

Can you imagine the problem that would face China if 750 million workers oppose a massive tax hike to meet govt expenditure, started to protest.?

The problem for Greece is that of overspending and failure to implement financial reforms, its absurd to pin the blame on tax evasion as if that is the major cause. The situations in Greece or Portugal are much more similar to that of the US, except that the US can just print more dollars.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
What constitutes falsely declaring costs? Certain type of education, insurance, housing etc are all exempt from income tax.

Refer back to Martins article. underneath is a few relevant lines The bit aI bolded strikes me as misreporting

"If anything, incomes are grossly underreported in China. A simple look at how accounting works will show why. Whereas in the U.S. individuals must report their income to the Internal Revenue Service every year, in China all individual tax is reported and paid for by companies, except for that of high earners. Many Chinese companies limit the tax they pay by reporting low salaries and then paying their employees higher amounts while accounting for the difference as business expenses like phone bills. The employees are happy because they make every bit as much as they were promised, and the companies are pleased to lower their tax exposure."







Certainly not encouraging cheating like in Google's case through lobbying and secret pact with the IRS, in fact there are continuous reforms in taxation.

Threshold for individual income tax expects adjustment in 2011: report
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coming 12th Five-Year Plan (2010-15)
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China tweaks tax code on individuals' restricted-share transfers
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New tax on foreign firms starts Wednesday
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The problem for Greece is that of overspending and failure to implement financial reforms, its absurd to pin the blame on tax evasion as if that is the major cause. The situations in Greece or Portugal are much more similar to that of the US, except that the US can just print more dollars.

Im not claiming that tax evasion was the cause of Greeces financial calimity, but as a result of the financial calimity, tax reforms/which included tax increases needed to be put in place for the government to find the funds towards repayment of loan payments, recied from the EU etc for the bailout. This is proving hard on the population who for many, relied on tax evasion for generations to make up for poor pay.

Quote from global times

The income growth of ordinary workers has been relatively slow in recent years, and the proportion of income as a share of GDP has decreased.

Would it not be tempting to evade tax under the circumstances? or this

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China’s Army of Graduates Is Struggling
By ANDREW JACOBS

BEIJING — Liu Yang, a coal miner’s daughter, arrived in the capital this past summer with a freshly printed diploma from Datong University, $140 in her wallet and an air of invincibility.

Her first taste of reality came later the same day, as she lugged her bags through a ramshackle neighborhood, not far from the Olympic Village, where tens of thousands of other young strivers cram four to a room.

Unable to find a bed and unimpressed by the rabbit warren of slapdash buildings, Ms. Liu scowled as the smell of trash wafted up around her. “Beijing isn’t like this in the movies,” she said.

Often the first from their families to finish even high school, ambitious graduates like Ms. Liu are part of an unprecedented wave of young people all around China who were supposed to move the country’s labor-dependent economy toward a white-collar future. In 1998, when Jiang Zemin, then the president, announced plans to bolster higher education, Chinese universities and colleges produced 830,000 graduates a year. Last May, that number was more than six million and rising.

It is a remarkable achievement, yet for a government fixated on stability such figures are also a cause for concern. The economy, despite its robust growth, does not generate enough good professional jobs to absorb the influx of highly educated young adults. And many of them bear the inflated expectations of their parents, who emptied their bank accounts to buy them the good life that a higher education is presumed to guarantee.

“College essentially provided them with nothing,” said Zhang Ming, a political scientist and vocal critic of China’s education system. “For many young graduates, it’s all about survival. If there was ever an economic crisis, they could be a source of instability.”

In a kind of cruel reversal, China’s old migrant class — uneducated villagers who flocked to factory towns to make goods for export — are now in high demand, with spot labor shortages and tighter government oversight driving up blue-collar wages.

But the supply of those trained in accounting, finance and computer programming now seems limitless, and their value has plunged. Between 2003 and 2009, the average starting salary for migrant laborers grew by nearly 80 percent; during the same period, starting pay for college graduates stayed the same, although their wages actually decreased if inflation is taken into account.

Chinese sociologists have come up with a new term for educated young people who move in search of work like Ms. Liu: the ant tribe. It is a reference to their immense numbers — at least 100,000 in Beijing alone — and to the fact that they often settle into crowded neighborhoods, toiling for wages that would give even low-paid factory workers pause.

“Like ants, they gather in colonies, sometimes underground in basements, and work long and hard,” said Zhou Xiaozheng, a sociology professor at Renmin University in Beijing.

The central government, well aware of the risks of inequitable growth, has been trying to channel more development to inland provinces like Shanxi, Ms. Liu’s home province, where the dismantling of state-owned industries a decade ago left a string of anemic cities.

Despite government efforts, urban residents earned on average 3.3 times more last year than those living in the countryside. Such disparities — and the lure of spectacular wealth in coastal cities like Shanghai, Tianjin and Shenzhen — keep young graduates coming.

“Compared with Beijing, my hometown in Shanxi feels like it’s stuck in the 1950s,” said Li Xudong, 25, one of Ms. Liu’s classmates, whose father is a vegetable peddler. “If I stayed there, my life would be empty and depressing.”

While some recent graduates find success, many are worn down by a gantlet of challenges and disappointments. Living conditions can be Dickensian, and grueling six-day work weeks leave little time for anything else but sleeping, eating and doing the laundry.

But what many new arrivals find more discomfiting are the obstacles that hard work alone cannot overcome. Their undergraduate degrees, many from the growing crop of third-tier provincial schools, earn them little respect in the big city. And as the children of peasants or factory workers, they lack the essential social lubricant known as guanxi, or personal connections, that greases the way for the offspring of China’s nouveau riche and the politically connected.

Emerging from the sheltered adolescence of one-child families, they quickly bump up against the bureaucracy of population management, known as the hukou system, which denies migrants the subsidized housing and other health and welfare benefits enjoyed by legally registered residents.

Add to this a demographic tide that has increased the ranks of China’s 20-to-25-year-olds to 123 million, about 17 million more than there were just four years ago.

“China has really improved the quality of its work force, but on the other hand competition has never been more serious,” said Peng Xizhe, dean of Social Development and Public Policy at Fudan University in Shanghai.

Given the glut of underemployed graduates, Mr. Peng suggested that young people either shift to more practical vocations like nursing and teaching or recalibrated their expectations. “It’s O.K. if they want to try a few years seeking their fortune, but if they stay too long in places like Beijing or Shanghai, they will find trouble for themselves and trouble for society,” he said.

A fellow Datong University graduate, Yuan Lei, threw the first wet blanket over the exuberance of Ms. Liu, Mr. Li and three friends not long after their July arrival in Beijing. Mr. Yuan had arrived several months earlier for an internship but was still jobless.

“If you’re not the son of an official or you don’t come from money, life is going to be bitter,” he told them over bowls of 90-cent noodles, their first meal in the capital.

As the light faded and the streets became thick with young receptionists, cashiers and sales clerks heading home, Mr. Yuan led his friends down a dank alley and up an unsteady staircase to his room. It was about the width of a queen-size bed, and he shared a filthy toilet with dozens of other tenants and a common area with a communal hot plate.

Mr. Li smiled as he took in the scene. Like most young Chinese, his life until that moment had been coddled, chaperoned and intensely regimented. “I’m ready to go out into the world and test myself,” he said.

The next five months would provide more of a test than he or the others had expected. For weeks Mr. Li elbowed his way through crowded job fairs but came away empty-handed. His finance degree, recruiters told him, was useless because he was a “waidi ren,” an outsider, who could not be trusted to handle cash and company secrets.

When he finally found a job selling apartments for a real estate agency, he left after less than a week when his employer reneged on a promised salary and then fined him each day he failed to bring in potential clients.

In the end, Mr. Li and his friends settled for sales jobs with an instant noodle company. The starting salary, a low $180 a month, turned out to be partly contingent on meeting ambitious sales figures. Wearing purple golf shirts with the words “Lao Yun Pickled Vegetable Beef Noodles,” they worked 12-hour days, returning home after dark to a meal of instant noodles.

“This isn’t what I want to be doing, but at least I have a job,” said Mr. Li, sitting in his room one October evening. Decorated with origami birds left by a previous occupant, the room faced a neighbor’s less than two feet across an airshaft. The only personal touch was an instant noodle poster taped over the front door for privacy.

Because he had sold only 800 cases of noodles that month, 200 short of his sales target, Mr. Li’s paltry salary was taking a hit. And citing the arrival of winter, “peak noodle-eating season,” his boss had just doubled sales quotas.

Mr. Li worried aloud whether he would be able to marry his high school sweetheart, who had accompanied him here, if he could not earn enough money to buy a home. Such concerns are rampant among young Chinese men, who have been squeezed by skyrocketing real estate prices and a culture that demands that a groom provide an apartment for his bride. “I’m giving myself two years,” he said, his voice trailing off.

By November, the pressure had taken its toll on two of the others, including the irrepressible Liu Yang. After quitting the noodle company and finding no other job, she gave up and returned home.

That left Mr. Yuan, Mr. Li and their girlfriends. Over dinner one night, the four of them complained about the unkindness of Beijingers, the high cost of living and the boredom of their jobs. Still, they all vowed to stick it out.

“Now that I see what the outside world is like, my only regret is that I didn’t have more fun in college,” Mr. Yuan said.
 
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nameless

Junior Member
Im not claiming that tax evasion was the cause of Greeces financial calimity, but as a result of the financial calimity, tax reforms/which included tax increases needed to be put in place for the government to find the funds towards repayment of loan payments, recied from the EU etc for the bailout. This is proving hard on the population who for many, relied on tax evasion for generations to make up for poor pay.

They need to cut spending first, that is the major issue. If anything the Greeks were over-payed, its common knowledge. Increasing taxes in such a situation would of course be unpopular but its something that also could be done but the main thing is to cut spending.

Would it not be tempting to evade tax under the circumstances? or this

Do you even understand what is going on? Its employer that pays and does the taxes, not most of the individuals. And the poor below a certain threshold are exempt from income taxes, so the point is moot.

Current threshold for individual income tax in the country is 2,000 yuan ($300), amount that was implemented in 2008. Previously, during the National People's Congress (NPC), and Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) sessions in 2009 and 2010, many members called for the threshold to be adjusted to 3,000 yuan ($450).
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