Chinese Citizens REVOLT in Wukan!!

Equation

Lieutenant General
I think we should remove the arms-embargo to China. We can still sell outdated weapons such as the C-130s. We will be able to make some bucks without seriously increasing the strength of the PLA.

I think China should stop productions of rare earth elements and use it for domestic only. Watch the west and others would start begging for renegotiation of price like they would for a loan. NO rare earth elements no fancy iphones or C-130 to produce. Wait a minute...what am I saying? China makes all those.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Umm, it makes a massive difference. For example, I have a right to protest in my back garden - I don't have a right to break into yours and protest there.



Oh God, not more whining about India.

Guys, whatever chips you have on your shoulders about India, I suggest you get over it. China can be a better democracy than India.

And don't pretend that India "suffers" from democracy just because it's big. Belgium is tiny, but had a caretaker government for 541 days. Seriously. Why? Because the way by which politicians are elected is flawed.



But you're ignoring America's incredible rise. They built a whole country from scratch in double-quick time and became the most powerful country in the world. You can't denounce an entire political system just because there are sometimes disagreements on how to get things done. America has massively benefited from democracy and accompanying freedoms/rights.



How is any of that relevant to this discussion? We're talking about change in China today. China doesn't have to introduce 18th century "democracy". It can just grant modern democratic rights and freedoms to everyone. As I said earlier, China can choose how to bring in reform. It's not shopping from a catalogue with limited options, it can look at all the democratic systems in the world and pull good aspects from all of them.

For example, I would go with a parliamentary system. The president would have limited powers for emergency situations. He or she could be directly elected or appointment by parliament.

MPs would be elected by first past the post, making it easier for a party or parties to form a stable majority government. Parliament would also select the PM, who would be the nation's leader. This would avoid the situation in the US where the president doesn't necessarily have a majority in Congress. And that's just for starters.

There is no perfect political system, but China is in an enviable position of being able to pick and choose the means for which it will become a proper democracy.


That's the point of my argument! China DOES NOT NEED A DEMOCRACY (in a western sense) TO SUCCEED! And it has proven it with a mix economy of Capitalism (even this the west couldn't master) and strong leadership to make it happen. It is Communism and Capitalism with Chinese characteristics that provided stability and improvement to its billions of people. What's wrong with the west to learn a few pointers from Communist China? Are they that proud not to see prudence decision making works?

"China didn't even have a chance to try democracy properly! The country was completely unstable at the time and had just seen the overthrown of imperial rule. You can't shift from a despotic monarchy to a modern democratic system in 5 minutes. Moreover, Yuan Shikai clearly had no interest in democracy and did everything he could to undermine it.

What happened in China after the fall of the Qing was not due to democracy. It was because key players like Yuan abandoned democracy and just tried to impose more authoritarian rule."


LMAO...SO WHAT HAPPEN TO EGYPT LATELY!! Is Iraq stable and harmonious yet, or did 'democracy' get in the way of social progress again?

"Umm, it makes a massive difference. For example, I have a right to protest in my back garden - I don't have a right to break into yours and protest there."

Wrong it's all the same, now matter how much you denied it. I have the right to protest peacefully under whatever the law of the land (whether it's in China or the US). You can try to break into my back garden to protest, but in the state of TEXAS I have the right to shoot and kill you for tress passing on my property. YES, it's all legal.

"But America didn't develop all in the late 20th century! It had to invent or wait for the development of key technologies and economic principles. It also had to wait for people to flock to the country to drive population growth. The country was completely undeveloped, with hardly anyone living in most of it and no significant settlements. What they did was a great achievement."

You mean God didn't do it for you...LMAO! Look at how you try to justify your arguments with whimsical data and make up history.

"This is the problem with China. For democracy to work in the future, civil society needs to be given space to develop. People need to be able to air their political ideas and expose corruption without being placed under house arrest at the drop of a hat. The CCP is creating ideal conditions for democracy to fail in the future by repeatedly clamping down on any perceived undermining, let alone direct challenge, of its authority."

Democracy is should not be coddle to perfection. If it can NOT stand on its own, than it shouldn't stand at all. This is the problem with people outside of China he doesn't understand the long history of the development of its 5,000 year old history. You don't think they've enounter this before? You don't think democracy was practice before the Greeks did? Airing political ideas would not bring food to the table or exposing corruption, it's for people who don't have families or responsibilities whatsever with anything better to do but whine about there lack of political power.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
That's ridiculous. They're two completely different countries, with different histories, ethnic groups, cultures, belief systems, etc. Simply comparing them by population and developing nation status doesn't get you anywhere. You also can't just take the only country you think is similar and take a view simply based on that. Didn't you pay any attention during science lessons at school? If you perform a comparative experiment you have to run it many, many times. Otherwise you might get freak results influenced by other factors.

You are now evading into unrelated subject of scientific investigation that had nothing to do with empirical method of social and political study.Even Nobel prize winner Amartha Sen use the same comparison
"For me," Sen noted, "the most important thing is that they were so very similar in the 1940s, so very similar in economic and social development until the 1970s. That makes it very natural to ask how they have progressed since then."
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Autocracy is not the only condition to achieve economic growth but Autocracy and capitalism combined with efficient government can achieve miracle

I think it is commonsense to accept the reality that democracy does indeed slow down moves towards economic efficiency. Some people have a problem accepting this.That why all those excuses and bogus reason why they couldn't achieve the promised land.The literature is littered with book title like Hare and tortoise, Dragon and swan.Reality is something else
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Democracy is not a system designed for fast progress. At least not all the time. Its institutions are intended to check the excessive concentration of power in a few hands. When it comes to making painful economic choices, democracies take longer to decide precisely because so many people need convincing and vested interests need neutralisation.

The history of the Asian tigers tells us that higher growth and reforms were always more easily pushed through in autocratic environments — South Korea, Singapore, Philippines, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia and China. When these countries were on the road to tigerhood, they were all autocracies. Some still are

At different times in their histories and to far differing degrees. China was ruled by "non-Chinese" dynasties, but modern "colonialism" was restricted to cities and small areas, apart from when the Japanese invaded. On the other hand India was under direct and almost complete British rule for a long time right up until independence.

I think it should benefit India more because they inherited modern and best civil service in the world. Excellent country wide network of modern public school and University. Or the best infrastructure in continental Asia at that time

China has none of those At the end of Qing dynasty there is no modern public school, Civil servant is selected based on rote learning of Confucius analect.

Qing dynasty inhibit modernization exactly because they are non Han dynasty clinging too long to outdated system of government because they are afraid any loosening of control will result in revolution.

Easy, economic policy. India remained Socialist until fairly recently, whereas China went capitalism decades ago. China didn't invent a miracle economic policy from CCP political thought. Remember that Maoist economic policies almost ruined China. It was adoption of foreign ideas (and technology). You don't have to be a one-party state to reform economically!

People can always find excused I can also say that India doesn't suffer from debilitating economic embargo from 1950 to 1970. And how you explain the economic malaise that India suffer now
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Nothing that sort. What the CCP did is retreating themselves from the sphere of Economy and private life of citizen. And releasing the economic drive and entrepreneurship power of the Chinese people.that were always there just submerge during period of intoxication with foreign ideology of Marxism. Chine didn't learn commerce from the west.The commerce tradition in China is century old . It is in their gene. It is not for nothing that Chinese are called the Jew of Asia

You can go to all countries in South East Asia and see that so much of the economy is dominated by Ethnic Chinese enterprises. Why?

Oppressed and hassled in their own country. The colonial power provide the frame work of law, order and stability and allowing the Chinese talent in trade to drive the commerce.So effectively China replicated this recipe. The result speak for themselves.

But America didn't develop all in the late 20th century! It had to invent or wait for the development of key technologies and economic principles. It also had to wait for people to flock to the country to drive population growth. The country was completely undeveloped, with hardly anyone living in most of it and no significant settlements. What they did was a great achievement.

America live on the most bountiful country in the world and benefited greatly from the talent and capital of the European. Being relatively isolated and sparsely populated they can developed without any interference from Europe. There is nothing magical in this

You mean China decided to get involved in those conflicts. And India had its own wars with China and Pakistan.

No China hand was forced when the UN and America cross to Yalu river It present latent danger to the industrial heartland of China. 3 times in history China answer the call of help from Korea. there is Imjin war against Hideyoshi in 1598 and the first Sino Japan war in 1895. and the 1950 war


Complete rubbish. Many Chinese are much richer, but a large number are still poor. The CCP finally adjusted its definition of poverty upwards and suddenly three times the previous number are "poor". It's all about how you define poverty. Yes, economic reforms have been great for China, poverty has not been "effectively eliminated" at all. It's easy to say there's no poverty if you set/hold the barrier at a low point.

Again this the most stupid argument I ever heard. The UN convention of Beyond poverty line is based on PPP and China comply with this convention. But as China prospered so do inflation and therefore lower the Purchasing parity . So they need to adjust the PPP by raising the cut off line of Poverty.Even using the new cut off line only 7% of Chinese population can be considered poor vs 55% for India

The other goal is by raising the cutoff line they speed up the poverty eradication program by allowing large number of people to qualify for subsidy such as health care, free schooling, minimum existence income etc
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China didn't even have a chance to try democracy properly! The country was completely unstable at the time and had just seen the overthrown of imperial rule. You can't shift from a despotic monarchy to a modern democratic system in 5 minutes. Moreover, Yuan Shikai clearly had no interest in democracy and did everything he could to undermine it.

What happened in China after the fall of the Qing was not due to democracy. It was because key players like Yuan abandoned democracy and just tried to impose more authoritarian rule.

I would also use your argument that China is still not ready for democracy. What make you sure that if China today convert to democracy that no snake oil salesmen show up and promising the masses star and moon while enriching themselves. Being gullible they will follow the path of destruction . Example are abound just look across the Taiwan strait. Just in nick of time they averted disaster.

But some developing countries handle it better than others. There is no reason why democratic reforms would fail in China in making things better, unless they were introduced in panic because the CCP had fallen or the leadership was facing mounting public anger over various issues.

Care to name them?. Most of South America achieved their independence about the same time as US and choose democracy Yet they never achieved anything close too US living standard now why?
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
it is not just arm embargo whole series of economic sanction was applied to China like witholding exim bank approval. World bank loan was frozen, Japanese loan postponed etc Most of them are revoked latter because it inhibit trade. Read my revised posting
Dual purpose technology cannot be exported. CNC machine, Computer, etc

Earlier in 1950 until 1974 US and the west subjected China to complete economic embargo

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Thats totally irrelevant as we are talking about the embargo that was put in place after TAM.. Futhermore , those trade figures produced in the article I provided you with, show China excepting for the odd hiccup here and there , she wasn't doing, too badly which then leads me to conclude that the countries involved in the trade embargo, "had a bark worse than it's bite."
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
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Sorry gents, fascinating stuff but way, way offtopic.
Please return to original subject
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Fair enough, Sampan. Here's some discussion on Wukan (again).

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The intervention of senior officials to pacify Wukan looks like an improvised solution to get protesters off the streets.

The question now is whether the central government will address the root causes of the protests by implementing long-postponed legislation on rural land seizures and cracking down on corruption.

For the Communist Party, the risks of inaction are clear. The protests signify an expression of rising rights consciousness among citizens that could grow in other towns.

Wukan villagers invoked their rights under law and called on the government to affirm those rights. In doing so, they raised issues that touch on the core of the rule of the Party-state: illegal land seizures by local officials; the slowness of the central government in responding to widely publicized illegality in rural property transactions; official corruption as a general phenomenon; and the danger that widening protest poses to Party rule.

Legislative drafters have been working for years on new land laws that would govern expropriations. The delays reflect conflicting government priorities: one of the principal reasons for the forced land sales is the need for local governments to respond to central government pressure for economic growth, which in turn creates resistance to reforming land transactions.

The broader problem of official corruption often affects the land transactions. In the case of Wukan, the local Party secretary has held his position for 40 years. One “netizen” who traveled from Guangzhou to Wukan to support the protesters was quoted as saying, “This county is so corrupt, I truly believe that without real political reforms and freedom, we will have another revolution.” This can hardly be taken as representative, but that it was said at all suggests the degree of popular resentment of corruption among cadres – as well as a willingness to use language that central authorities would hear as dangerously seditious.

Protesting villagers complain that their rights have been violated by the corrupt local officials. One protest leader was quoted as saying: “I do have concerns” over the lack of progress, “But I do believe this country is ruled by law, so I do believe the central government will do whatever it has to do to help us.” On the morning of December 20th, another protester was quoted on an NPR broadcast as saying “we must use the weapons provided by the legal system to fight corruption to the end.”

The Wukan villagers’ call for the use of legal means to affirm their rights is not novel. It has been seen and heard in recent years not just in cases of alleged official corruption in land transactions, but also in labor disputes or instances of official disregard for the impact of industrial projects on the environment. An additional protest, against a coal-fired power plant, has just begun in a town not far from Wukan.

Local protests against corruption or other violations of law have often been marked by appeals to Beijing over the heads of the local officials whose conduct prompted the protests, rather than wider criticism of the political system. Negotiated compromises with strong protests are common.

But the events of the last weeks raise the question of what Beijing can do to address a nationwide problem in a comprehensive fashion that could strengthen rights consciousness and the rule of law, rather than treat each protest as an isolated incident.

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I agree with the basic conclusion in this article. If there is no more unrest or it is dealt with properly, Wang might actually benefit from it. However, if he can't get a handle on it he'll find it harder to get promoted.
 
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Fair enough, Sampan. Here's some discussion on Wukan (again).

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I agree with the basic conclusion in this article. If there is no more unrest or it is dealt with properly, Wang might actually benefit from it. However, if he can't get a handle on it he'll find it harder to get promoted.

If Central actually handles this problem positively, then perhaps/HOPEFULLY the corrupted officials will get punished, and we might actually see a glimpse of the Central government yielding to the people's demands, or a progress where their struggles can actually be answered, and hopefully that will lead/ring to more similar types of movements throughout the country for related cases or other types of power abuse, calling for the feds to step in and investigate. This will have a positive effect in nation-building, social reforms, more voices and freedom to be heard, democratization, letting the people know/learn more of their rights, and fighting corruption.
 
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