Chinese Citizens REVOLT in Wukan!!

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Again commerce is not favor. People buy product because of good price and reasonable quality. Were it not for cheap Chinese,The west has to live with lower living standard. Trade is mutually profitable transaction. No one owe any favor.Hey The west can close their market if they can afford it!

Futhermore, just a quick glance in this document " Chinas trade with the United States and the rest of the World" shows that China was trading with the WEst despite these so claimed boycotts.

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on page 32 "According to U.S. data, the United States has incurred trade deficits with
China since 1983." Japan also had trade deficits with China during this period. So much then for the 10yr trade embargo.
 
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cmb=1968

Junior Member
Futhermore, just a quick glance in this document " Chinas trade with the United States and the rest of the World" shows that China was trading with the WEst despite these so claimed boycotts.

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on page 32 "According to U.S. data, the United States has incurred trade deficits with
China since 1983." Japan also had trade deficits with China during this period. So much then for the 10yr trade embargo.

I thought it was a arms embargo and certain defense related technology's after 89 not a total trade embargo.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Futhermore, just a quick glance in this document " Chinas trade with the United States and the rest of the World" shows that China was trading with the WEst despite these so claimed boycotts.

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on page 32 "According to U.S. data, the United States has incurred trade deficits with
China since 1983." Japan also had trade deficits with China during this period. So much then for the 10yr trade embargo.

No one put a gun on the west to buy Chinese product. America and the west are latecomer when it come to investing in China not until 2000.In those early year reform China desperately need capital. If you throttle the money supply you practically boycott the economy. Want to know the long list of Boycott read this

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June 20, 1989


Seeking to deter Congress from pushing for harsher sanctions, Bush suspends all high-level government exchanges with China, including planned July visit by Commerce Secretary Robert A. Mosbacher, announces intention to seek delays in new loans for China from international financial institutions. Japan suspends negotiations with China on a five-year, 810-billion-yen aid program ($5.5 billion at current exchange rate) due to begin in April 1990. (New York Times, 21 June 1989, A1; Financial Times , 21 June 1989, 1)

William F. Ryan, acting Eximbank chairman, testifies that "[n]ew applications for medium and long-term financing support [for China] will not receive final consideration unless it is clear that the U.S. supplier will lose the business in the absence of an Exim financing offer." (US House of Representatives 2)

June 29, 1989


House votes 418 to 0 in favor of amendment to foreign aid bill that codifies Bush's earlier sanctions, suspends new investment guarantees and previously authorized funds for US trade development, bans exports of crime-control and "gray-area" nuclear equipment, calls for negotiations in COCOM (Consultative Group and Coordinating Committee for Multilateral Export Controls) to suspend recent reforms of technology transfer rules for China. President is authorized to lift sanctions if China makes progress on political reforms, or if he deems it in national interest to do so. (Washington Post, 30 June 1989, A1; New York Times, 30 June 1989, A1; Wall Street Journal, 30 June

July 14, 1989


Senate, by 81-to-10 margin, approves amendment incorporating China sanctions approved earlier by House, as well as calling for postponement of Eximbank loans, opposition to loans to China by international financial institutions, review of all bilateral trade agreements, including whether to continue MFN status. (Washington Post, 15 July 1989, A1)

July 15, 1989


Leaders of Group of Seven (G-7) major industrial countries, meeting at economic summit in Paris, announce that "to express our deep sense of condemnation" each has suspended high-level contacts, bilateral arms trade with China; in addition, they agree "that, in view of current economic uncertainties, the examination of new loans by the World Bank [should] be postponed." Actions are taken in hopes that China will "create conditions which will avoid their isolation and provide for a return to cooperation based upon the resumption of movement toward political and economic reform and openness." (New York Times, 16 July 1989, A17)
 
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Joshluot-34-85

New Member
I agree with your arguments regarding racism, political gridlock, and discrimination in the U.S. In fact since racism and sexual discrimination were dark sides of U.S. history, these topics are extremely sensitive in the U.S. today, and the one of the last thing most Americans want is to be branded a "racist" or "sexist."

Political gridlocks happen as usual, but once the majority of the population sees crisis (like the threat of the USSR of imperial Japan/Germany, Great Depression), the people will force their politicians to act. You can even argue that our politicians are playing their games because the people have not pressure them enough. In another word, situation is not bad enough to the point in which enough people are compelled to pressure their politicians. As a result, big lobbyists such as Wall Street and Defense Contractors are still messing around in the Capitol, plus some news agencies such as Fox News is controlled by the far right to brainwash people.

Anyway I guess you made a legitimate argument for the efficiency of the China System, but I hope there are more Bo Xilai style people, not just in Chongqing, to intimidate corrupt officials. I will say corruption and relationship between big businesses and local governments are China's Achilles' Heel. They can really impede the Central Government's efficiency and derail the country's economic development. If Zhong Nanhai wants a stable China, it must try its best to target corruption at local level (and central agencies such as the Ministry of Railway). The people does not resent inequality, but only the combination of corruption, environmental degradation, and railway/school bus accidents (because of bad quality roads and railway signal lights).

Actually what do you think is the solution to situation such as when the government wants to construct a high speed railway, local and railway ministry officials always stuff 20-40% of the construction money into their pockets?
 

Joshluot-34-85

New Member
I think we should remove the arms-embargo to China. We can still sell outdated weapons such as the C-130s. We will be able to make some bucks without seriously increasing the strength of the PLA.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You're right but Hendrick seems to think otherwise, as well as minimalising the part the West played in China's success story.

it is not just arm embargo whole series of economic sanction was applied to China like witholding exim bank approval. World bank loan was frozen, Japanese loan postponed etc Most of them are revoked latter because it inhibit trade. Read my revised posting
Dual purpose technology cannot be exported. CNC machine, Computer, etc

Earlier in 1950 until 1974 US and the west subjected China to complete economic embargo

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Mr T

Senior Member
India is comparable to China in every sense.

That's ridiculous. They're two completely different countries, with different histories, ethnic groups, cultures, belief systems, etc. Simply comparing them by population and developing nation status doesn't get you anywhere. You also can't just take the only country you think is similar and take a view simply based on that. Didn't you pay any attention during science lessons at school? If you perform a comparative experiment you have to run it many, many times. Otherwise you might get freak results influenced by other factors.

Both are newly independent countries.Both of them suffer from colonialism

At different times in their histories and to far differing degrees. China was ruled by "non-Chinese" dynasties, but modern "colonialism" was restricted to cities and small areas, apart from when the Japanese invaded. On the other hand India was under direct and almost complete British rule for a long time right up until independence.

So now How can you explain that ?. China must doing something right that India didn't

Easy, economic policy. India remained Socialist until fairly recently, whereas China went capitalism decades ago. China didn't invent a miracle economic policy from CCP political thought. Remember that Maoist economic policies almost ruined China. It was adoption of foreign ideas (and technology). You don't have to be a one-party state to reform economically!

Yet with all the favorable condition such as bountiful country. moderate climate and relatively free from natural disaster, free from interference and aggression from neighboring countries, It take America 200 years to achieve their high living standard.

But America didn't develop all in the late 20th century! It had to invent or wait for the development of key technologies and economic principles. It also had to wait for people to flock to the country to drive population growth. The country was completely undeveloped, with hardly anyone living in most of it and no significant settlements. What they did was a great achievement.

China constantly has to face interference and meddling . Right after her independence she has to face KOREAN War, Indian border war.Vietnam war.

You mean China decided to get involved in those conflicts. And India had its own wars with China and Pakistan.

Yet within the span of 30 years she effectively eliminated poverty

Complete rubbish. Many Chinese are much richer, but a large number are still poor. The CCP finally adjusted its definition of poverty upwards and suddenly three times the previous number are "poor". It's all about how you define poverty. Yes, economic reforms have been great for China, poverty has not been "effectively eliminated" at all. It's easy to say there's no poverty if you set/hold the barrier at a low point.

It has been tried before and failed miserably. The result is misery, poverty, war, warlord ism, colonial aggression, In other word a splinter and weak china , impoverished China
Now who is stupid enough to try a failed model second time around !

China didn't even have a chance to try democracy properly! The country was completely unstable at the time and had just seen the overthrown of imperial rule. You can't shift from a despotic monarchy to a modern democratic system in 5 minutes. Moreover, Yuan Shikai clearly had no interest in democracy and did everything he could to undermine it.

What happened in China after the fall of the Qing was not due to democracy. It was because key players like Yuan abandoned democracy and just tried to impose more authoritarian rule.

the problem of corruption, inequality, environmental degradation are part and parcel of developing country. You can't get a way from it

But some developing countries handle it better than others. There is no reason why democratic reforms would fail in China in making things better, unless they were introduced in panic because the CCP had fallen or the leadership was facing mounting public anger over various issues.

This is the problem with China. For democracy to work in the future, civil society needs to be given space to develop. People need to be able to air their political ideas and expose corruption without being placed under house arrest at the drop of a hat. The CCP is creating ideal conditions for democracy to fail in the future by repeatedly clamping down on any perceived undermining, let alone direct challenge, of its authority.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
But some developing countries handle it better than others. There is no reason why democratic reforms would fail in China in making things better, unless they were introduced in panic because the CCP had fallen or the leadership was facing mounting public anger over various issues.

Actually, there are plenty of reasons, but you simply choose to ignore them.
 
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