Chinese air to air missiles
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
What I wouldn't do to acquire the intel that lead them to this conclusion...
It seems like this General has mentioned the PL-15 before - and proposed the complete replacement of the AIM-120D and AIM-9X!
Speaking at a Feb. 12 media roundtable during the conference, Gen. Herbert Carlisle said Air Dominance 2030 supplants talk of a single sixth-generation F-X or F/A-XX to instead focus on multi-domain capabilities. He pointed to air, space and cyber capabilities as well as new munition loadouts.
"With the F-22 and F-35, two fantastic airplanes, air dominance in that [2030] time frame may not solely be an aircraft; it's the family-of-systems discussion," Carlisle said. "Stealth is wonderful, but you need to have more than stealth. Speed and maneuverability, sensor fusion, staying inside the decision OODA loop -- there's a portion of stealth that is hugely important and is part of it, but it's certainly not the only thing."
The general said long-range standoff munitions and even new air-to-air missiles to replace the AIM-120D AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder would be included in the air superiority discussion.
He said the capabilities being developed by America's potential adversaries, such as the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missile, are "incredible."
"I believe if we look at this as we have in the past, we can figure out how to change the game and be better at it," Carlisle said, adding that high-powered lasers and microwave weapons are technical areas showing great promise.
I have the feeling that the PL-15, according to Gen. Carlisle, is not merely a Sino-AIM-120D, but actually the ultra-long-range ramjet missile PL-12D or PL-21... Or else, why would he propose the replacement of the entire AIM-120 line...
Could be hyperbole and shilling for the MIC, of course. But maybe China really has something in the works. This actually fits with the recent rumor about that PL-15 test-launch: If the PL-15 is the missile we (and Huitong) assumed to be (seen on the J-11B and J-20 since 2010/11), why would the first life-fire test only happen now? I'd say that the PL-15 is an entirely new missile not seen before.
Speaking at a Feb. 12 media roundtable during the conference, Gen. Herbert Carlisle said Air Dominance 2030 supplants talk of a single sixth-generation F-X or F/A-XX to instead focus on multi-domain capabilities. He pointed to air, space and cyber capabilities as well as new munition loadouts.
"With the F-22 and F-35, two fantastic airplanes, air dominance in that [2030] time frame may not solely be an aircraft; it's the family-of-systems discussion," Carlisle said. "Stealth is wonderful, but you need to have more than stealth. Speed and maneuverability, sensor fusion, staying inside the decision OODA loop -- there's a portion of stealth that is hugely important and is part of it, but it's certainly not the only thing."
The general said long-range standoff munitions and even new air-to-air missiles to replace the AIM-120D AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder would be included in the air superiority discussion.
He said the capabilities being developed by America's potential adversaries, such as the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missile, are "incredible."
"I believe if we look at this as we have in the past, we can figure out how to change the game and be better at it," Carlisle said, adding that high-powered lasers and microwave weapons are technical areas showing great promise.
I have the feeling that the PL-15, according to Gen. Carlisle, is not merely a Sino-AIM-120D, but actually the ultra-long-range ramjet missile PL-12D or PL-21... Or else, why would he propose the replacement of the entire AIM-120 line...
Could be hyperbole and shilling for the MIC, of course. But maybe China really has something in the works. This actually fits with the recent rumor about that PL-15 test-launch: If the PL-15 is the missile we (and Huitong) assumed to be (seen on the J-11B and J-20 since 2010/11), why would the first life-fire test only happen now? I'd say that the PL-15 is an entirely new missile not seen before.
That's a suggestion over on CDF as well...
One post, over there also put this up... not sure if it's anywhere near reliable but it would certainly constitute PL-15 to be "incredible"
Of course that means we'll have to completely reassess just what designation to give to the cropped wing PL-12...
Mach 4, 400 km range
@长所所出派
霹雳-15导弹长3.8米，弹径210毫米，翼展403毫米，发射重量180-230公斤，具备全向位、全天候发射能力，配备两级固体火箭发动机，由于增加了冲压发动机段，最高速度超过4马赫，最大射程400公里，这是目前任何现役或其他在研的空战武器中所无法想象的距离。弹头为30公斤重的杆状高爆预置破片弹头。
JayBird
Junior Member
Don't know if it was just exaggeration on his part, but the guy CaoGen aka GrassRoots who posted the original information about PL-10 and Pl-15 test fired sucessfully from J-10C and J-16 the other day says:
"History will mark the date of 9-15-2015 as a new era towards a better future for China(Chinese military). And the PL-15 hits the small target accurately at extreme long range. Two great happy news for today."
"History will mark the date of 9-15-2015 as a new era towards a better future for China(Chinese military). And the PL-15 hits the small target accurately at extreme long range. Two great happy news for today."
Indeed ... Mach4 / 400km ... that's simply impossible for a PL-12-sized missile even if the body would probably have a slightly wider diameter (IMO they are the same !)
So this "cropped wing PL-12" we've seen in the J-20's weapons bay is "simply" a internal-carriage-PL-12-version (maybe replacing the design with folding fins) or another new missile ... but not the PL-15 ... or this report is wrong !?
Deino
Yes, the 400km/mach 4 AAM, if it really is PL-15, means the cropped wing PL-12 that we've seen is thus not PL-15. In the description they say it is a ramjet powered missile.
A ramjet powered LRAAM with the dimensions listed, could conceivably have a range of 400km if it is fired against a very optimal target under very optimal conditions -- Meteor is said to have a max range of 300+ km, depending on target. And a mach 4 speed is actually quite normal for MRAAMs, even AIM-120 has a speed of mach 4.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think the PL15 may be further along than people generally seem to believe.
Think about it, who tests a brand new missile for the first time with a brand new fighter? Simply too many unknowns to be worth the risk.
The PL15 would have been first tested using a mature asset like J10A or J11B, not still-to-enter-formal-service, developmental types like the J10C or J16, never mind both types.
In addition, unless there are serious security breeches, the US would not be this quick to publically give an opinion on the PL15 if its still in early development.
My hunch is that the PL15 has been in advanced tests for some time now, maybe even years, enough time for the US to get a fair approximation of its capabilities.
The J10C and J16 test launches we have heard about recently are in fact integration tests to add the missile to those fighters, meaning the missile is likely to have completed all its testing, and is now in the process of being intergraded onto fighters to ready it for field deployment.
Timeframe wise, it fits, as we usually never get such details about Chinese missiles still in early development. They only tend to leak details like this once the weapon has been deployed and effectively declassified to a lower secrecy level.
Think about it, who tests a brand new missile for the first time with a brand new fighter? Simply too many unknowns to be worth the risk.
The PL15 would have been first tested using a mature asset like J10A or J11B, not still-to-enter-formal-service, developmental types like the J10C or J16, never mind both types.
In addition, unless there are serious security breeches, the US would not be this quick to publically give an opinion on the PL15 if its still in early development.
My hunch is that the PL15 has been in advanced tests for some time now, maybe even years, enough time for the US to get a fair approximation of its capabilities.
The J10C and J16 test launches we have heard about recently are in fact integration tests to add the missile to those fighters, meaning the missile is likely to have completed all its testing, and is now in the process of being intergraded onto fighters to ready it for field deployment.
Timeframe wise, it fits, as we usually never get such details about Chinese missiles still in early development. They only tend to leak details like this once the weapon has been deployed and effectively declassified to a lower secrecy level.
If this point is true, we may see it in Zhuhai next year.
Yes, I think it is always worth questioning just what a "successful test fire" means, within the scope of a programme.
Is it the first test fire ever from ground, or air or is it newly integrated on a new particular platform, or is it the first test fire against a particular target profile or specific launch condition... etc.
Is it the first test fire ever from ground, or air or is it newly integrated on a new particular platform, or is it the first test fire against a particular target profile or specific launch condition... etc.