Chinese 96-A

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
for your 3rd point,i think you did not get why pla op for a light tank...
pla now want a combo more like the 59-62(Type62lighttank(or WZ131series),not the soviet T62)
new LT are said to equip top-end FCS and Networking packages like 99As,this alone means LT are not going to be the cheap low cost platforms....and there are photos showing new LTs prototype are testing with hydraulic suspension,combine those features means New LTs will not be cheap....
pla's heavy-light diversion is not a cost-based concern,it is a solution to answer the vastly diverse geographic feature within china's borders and its potential opponents....
you knew 96s/96As are not a good mountain/ wet-land tank, and china is gonna need a good mountain-wet land tank in the future...

While I agree that the division between the new Light tank and heavier ZTZ99A is partly due to geography, I do not think we can come to conclude that a future PLA tank fleet will be a full mix of ZTZ99A and the new light tank.

The new light tank will have modern sensors and networking, yes, but it will also be cheaper than ZTZ99A because it is smaller -- less powerful engine, less armour, less munitions. If a future tank fleet is completely made up of ZTZ99A and the new light tank, then inevitably it will be a high-low combination by the cost and capability factor by definition. But practically as well, the PLA cannot afford to only have the new light tank in geographical regions where ZTZ99As cannot roam, because that would mean every other geographic region would only have ZTZ99A, which the PLA won't be able to afford.


for your 1st sentence,i can only say: give it more time,the oldest 96s have some time before they need to be refitted....

We don't have any photo or credible rumours to demonstrate that is happening, period.


for your 2nd sentence, because the sizable number of 96s already in service,you are right...

Considering the word mainstay is for something to be the chief support or product which makes up a group, then it is pretty obvious ZTZ96/A is the mainstay, no two ways about it.
 

cyan1320

Junior Member
Something else to consider is that this event does not seem to have taken fuel management/economy into account at all. It would have been more interesting if tanks had to do circuits so long they needed to refuel a few times.


I'm not a fan of NASCAR, but if they replaced he stock cars with tanks and added obstacles on the oval course to be rolled over, plowed through or just blown up.... Then I would pay money to see this!
Can you imagine the action at tank pit stops, fuel and tread changes LOL ;):D
 

costas

Just Hatched
Registered Member
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Russia placed first and Armenia placed second:

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PLA contestants don't seem too happy about the results:

6x0UPNb.jpg

We would like to know if this website is made for showing the unhappiness (a natural reaction) of the great PLA soldiers when they see the award to the Nazis of Ukraine, who are supported by CIA and Merkel.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
good to know but then if that is so then in a war how would a type 96 be able to catch up with the type 99. wouldn't that slow down the whole operation?

I think we should be careful not to get overly influenced by non-practical figures like top speed.

Those figures are usually 'massaged' a fair bit, and the equipment would rarely if ever be able to achieve them under operational scenarios. Just take the top speed of the speedometer of your car as a case in point.

What more, we should remember that the max speed figures for tanks are actually of very little use. What are far more important are their optimal cruise speeds and combat speeds.

Continuing the car analogy, your car might have a theoretical top speed of 250km/h, and it might go up to 200km/h with a reasonable load. But what happens to your fuel economy and engine temperature when you push you machine that far?

I think the 96 flaming out at the end could be a result of the crew having pushed the engine too hard for too long.

I can think of very few tactical scenarios that would require a tank to need to travel at top speed for prolonged periods of time, especially under combat conditions. In most cases, tanks would be going to cruising speeds, which tries to balance speed with fuel economy. That speed is determined more by the gearing than horsepower, and a tank with a lower top speed could easily have a higher cruising speed than another tank with higher top speed. It's all about prioritisation and design choice.

I would expect the 96 and 99 to have similar cruising speeds so they can keep pace with each other. Or at least that is a requirement I would have set if I was in charge of procurement in the PLA.

The other design parameter that is far more useful and important than top speed is combat speed. This is the speed at which a tank could still reliably engage targets while on the move. The higher this speed is, the more tactical options tank and field commanders will have and the harder it will be for an enemy to hit you.

We have all seen how much of a difference there is between the 96 and T72s. That can and will make a huge difference in a combat scenario.

Ideally, you want your cruise speed and combat speed to be as close as possible and to be as high as possible for obvious reasons. A big different between your top/cruise speed and your combat speed will erode the utility of your higher top/cruise speeds as the faster you go, the more you will need to slow down before you can engage an enemy. That adds precious seconds to your engagement cycle, which will likely more than offset any tactical advantages making a top speed dash might net you in a combat scenario.

In fact, the only combat scenarios that I can think off where a high top speed would be clearly advantageous are if you are outranged by enemy guns and need to close the distance ASAP(but again, that is offset by the need to drastically slow down once you are within gun range before you can engage in the case of the T72), and fleeing the battlefield after a defeat.

Neither are tactically situations anyone wants to find themselves in, so I think it's far better to design your tanks and tactics to make sure you don't find yourself in those situations rather than design your tank to make the best of a hopeless situation.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
From an other perspective; good top speed is always good, but it isn't necessary. M18 hellcats have a higher top speed than M4 shermans in WW2, they never advanced any faster than the M4 due to the limitation of the roads, logistics and others.

M1A2 at 73 easting, iraq; the M1A2s outran their logistics and have to stop and wait for fuel.

In a country like China, with hills, swamps and valleys in the south, tanks can't go that fast that far.

In the northern plains, speed matter more and you have the 99 there.

But China is massive, a tank can run for, ~300 km in combat conditions before needing to refuel/resupply? the country cannot be overrun by fast tanks like a smaller country can.

There are only very few country with large deserts, plains, trundra which speed matters.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Unless you are gearing up mainly for invading others (and even then) your tanks shouldn't need to travel long distances under their own power. In a country like China, tank units will be rushed to where they need to be within 24 hours by rail and roads. They will only disembark when they near the front lines to deploy for combat.

Even if your tanks do need to travel large distances on their own, as I said before, cruising speed is much more important than top or sprint speed. If even you had the fuel for it, your tanks would overheat and start breaking down on you en mass if you make them cover large distances at or near their top speeds.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Unless you are gearing up mainly for invading others (and even then) your tanks shouldn't need to travel long distances under their own power. In a country like China, tank units will be rushed to where they need to be within 24 hours by rail and roads. They will only disembark when they near the front lines to deploy for combat.

Even if your tanks do need to travel large distances on their own, as I said before, cruising speed is much more important than top or sprint speed. If even you had the fuel for it, your tanks would overheat and start breaking down on you en mass if you make them cover large distances at or near their top speeds.


Wolf, I agree with you that tanks should be transported where possible.

However, tanks are not that fragile nowadays, patton's 24 hr force march to Bastogne didn't result in meaningful losses due to break down.

M4 and M26 had not had much break downs marching up and down the korean peninsula. - thats a 300-400 km march

Similarly, the gulf war, - maybe we don't know as the general public - there isn't much break down of collation tanks which is a 400-500 km field march.

but ofcourse those are combat speed marches. I believe the soviets regularly did 600 km/2days road marches for their tanks and expected them to be combat ready at the end of it.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
600km in two days. Assuming you only travel 10 hours a day would average 30km/h speed. That's cruise/combat speed and nowhere near the top speed those tanks could travel at, which proves my point - cruise speed is far more important than top speed.

If you wanted to travel long distances at top speed, theoretically you could cover that 600km in one 10h stint. But i somehow doubt many if any of the tanks would even be able to cross the finishing line if they pushed their tanks that hard that far.

My point throughout is that top speed is rather meaningless metric for tanks when it comes to usefulness. They cannot hope to hit the side of a barn door when travelling that fast unless maybe under ideal conditions, and they cannot move great distances at that speed without risking unacceptable attritional losses due to engine failure.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
600km in two days. Assuming you only travel 10 hours a day would average 30km/h speed. That's cruise/combat speed and nowhere near the top speed those tanks could travel at, which proves my point - cruise speed is far more important than top speed.

If you wanted to travel long distances at top speed, theoretically you could cover that 600km in one 10h stint. But i somehow doubt many if any of the tanks would even be able to cross the finishing line if they pushed their tanks that hard that far.

My point throughout is that top speed is rather meaningless metric for tanks when it comes to usefulness. They cannot hope to hit the side of a barn door when travelling that fast unless maybe under ideal conditions, and they cannot move great distances at that speed without risking unacceptable attritional losses due to engine failure.


Wolf, again, I don't disagree with you.

But we cannot simply divide 600 km by 2 X 10hr/day to get the speed the tanks were travelling at.

an armored division would have ~300 tanks? maintenance platoon of 600+ men + engineering vehicles, +8000 men in 200 APC/IFV and ~1000 trucks, organic artillery.

Thats a column length of 30 km just counting the vehicles at 20 m spacing,

Now, each one runs out of fuel in around 4-6 hours, Refueling process will take, 4-6 hours just to refuel the column and several hours for the trucks to actually get there driving up and down the column to reach each vehicle. +rest stop, +meal break, +terrain choke points,

The armoured column may only really be moving on the road 5-6 hours a day; probably a sustained road speed of 45-60 km/hr

The gulf war had shown that some Abrams that were advancing 100s of km a day in Iraq simply sat there for days waiting for fuel to catch up.
 
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