China's strategy in Korean peninsula

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Without overal trade deficit how can China provide dollars for international trade?

If you remove the US trade deficit, and say the US running trade surpluss then there is no money in the international trade to run trade surplusses, or even to facilitate the current level of international trade.

Means if China wants to replace the US as world hegemon then it needs a persistent overall trade deficit.

all those talk about trade imbalance are bogus infact the China trade surplus has been declining years after years if you include China trade with the rest of the world. It is now less than 2% of GDP
If US has trade imbalance it is with Germany and not with China
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The bilateral imbalance is a non-issue
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Economists generally do not pay much attention to bilateral imbalances for a number of reasons. One powerful reason in today’s world is the expansion of global value chains. About two-thirds of global trade now occurs in value chains that cross at least one border during production, and usually many borders. Figure 2 shows the value chain for China’s exports of electronic and optical equipment in 2011, one of China’s major exports. All the major inputs are identified by country and by sector as production moves through the different stages. The vertical axis measures compensation per hour, an indication of high- versus low-value-added activities. At the beginning of the production process there are inputs from service sectors such as finance, as well as different types of metals. This manufacturing industry is #14. Upstream from China’s input there are sophisticated parts and components from Germany, Japan, the U.S., South Korea and Taiwan. China’s activity is towards the end of the production process – low-wage assembly. Finished products then go from China to developed markets in the U.S. and Europe. At the end of the production chain are service sectors in advanced economies providing transportation and distribution.

China imports a lot of goods and services from upstream producers and then generally gets credit for the whole export when it is sent to the U.S. or Europe. For China’s exports as a whole, a bit more than half of the final cost is Chinese value added. It is possible to recalculate bilateral imbalances in terms of the value added traded among countries. This adjustment cuts the U.S.-China bilateral imbalance in half, while increasing imbalances with some of the upstream economies such as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. China is moving up the value chain so some of the labor-intensive assembly is shifting to Vietnam and other low-wage countries, with China starting to provide more sophisticated parts. This shift, other things equal, will reduce the bilateral imbalance between the U.S. and China, but nothing of importance will have happened in trade relations. This is one reason why economists do not view bilateral imbalances as useful metrics.



China’s overall surplus has come down
Unlike bilateral imbalances, overall trade balances are important economic variables. A deficit is not necessarily a bad thing, and a surplus, not necessarily a good thing. But overall imbalances indicate whether a country is a net borrower from the rest of the world, or a net lender. I view large imbalances as a bad thing because they are inherently unsustainable, which means there will have to be large adjustments in exchange rates and trade patterns at some point. Large adjustments tend to be costly and disruptive. Ten years ago the U.S. and China had fallen into a bad pattern in which China had an unsustainable trade surplus above 10% of GDP and the U.S. had a unsustainable deficit of about 6% of GDP. These large imbalances were a contributing factor to the global financial crisis.

As a result of the crisis China’s trade surplus dropped sharply.

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I feared at the time that the surplus would bounce back quickly with recovery, but in fact that has not happened. One reason is that China’s exchange rate, which had been severely undervalued, was allowed to appreciate by the central bank. Figure 3 shows an index of China’s trade-weighted exchange rate, which appreciated by nearly 40% over the ten-year period. Figure 3 also shows the current account, the broadest measure of the trade surplus, relative to GDP. After coming down sharply with the global crisis, it has remained low and was less than 2% of GDP in 2016. The most recent IMF global stability report finds China’s exchange rate to be fairly valued and its small surplus to be normal. I do not want to exaggerate the importance of the exchange rate because other policies are important as well. Some Chinese policies are encouraging consumption and that contributes to a reduction in the trade surplus as well.

The U.S. trade deficit came down after the global financial crisis but now it is rising again. If the U.S. deficit is rising then someone else’s surplus has to be on the rise as well. In this case it is Germany and other parts of Europe that are starting to run very large surpluses, above 8% of GDP in Germany’s case. It should also be noted that the U.S. deficit is largely determined by the country’s own macroeconomic policies. So far this year the U.S. deficit is up more than 9% over 2016. President Trump has trumpeted that his policies, including a large promised tax cut for corporations, are pushing up the stock market and attracting capital inflows. The counterpart to those inflows is a larger trade deficit. If the U.S. follows through with the tax cut, it will increase the fiscal deficit, drive up interest rates and the dollar, and widen the trade deficit. As this happens it would be inaccurate to blame China.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I don't know why somebody said Mexico GDP/capita is higher than China check this link here and the data is from 2016. I am sure by now based on 2017 data, China GDP/capita is higher than Mexico or Brazil .And that is nominal gdp and not PPP. This is world bank data
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Actualy, without the US and dollar the China / SK trade relations will be similar like between China and NK.

It is easy to get dollar now, but hard to get yuan for international trade, and extremly hard to get NK curreny for trade.

I think big part of the international smugling happens in dollar in NK , so they using actually the US currency to run the grey market economy.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
OK, "benefits" and "less damaged" are two different things. To say that it benefits the deficit country is to imply that the deficit country is avoiding trade war at its own expense for the sake of the surplus nation. To say that the deficit country would be less damaged, however, means that trade wars are a nasty affair that nobody wants to happen because everyone would be hurt by it but if shit hit the fan, ultimately, the deficit country would win. The former is what he said; it is ridiculous, against evidence, and I've never heard of it before. The latter, however, is an argument that I hear all the time. Some people say China would win; some say the US has more pulling strength. There are so many conflicting expert opinions and views on that topic that I'm not even going to debate it. And because since it hasn't happened, there is no right answer; everything is an opinion at this point.
That
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without any barriers is the optimal arrangement for all sides is a favourite talking point of mainstream economics. A trade war is then clearly about objectives other than direct economic benefit, specifically hurting the other side to force it closer to your position. Just like with a hot war, unless one side has massive superiority, the "winning" country will also have to take damage to achieve its objectives.
In the US-China context, the trade imbalance issue is, in my opinion, partly another talking point and partly about America wanting more access to the Chinese market, which is more closed than most.
I don't agree that everything is an opinion and nothing can be known about some scenarios.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
I don't know what are you trying to say ?Are you saying China should wasting their money making overcapacity plant?
I don't think that is the case China is one most popular destination of FDI that show the attractiveness of China as FDI destination Not India not Brazil not Vietnam. so much so now China pick and choose who they let to invest in China
Not only China is the final processing of good, increasing all the component that goes into that final product now are made in China
k
I think it is a bit more complicated.
Say you want to move your production to somewhere.
Many cases that the business get is no simply just same tax break, or similrar stuff, but actually a building with infrastructure, money to trasfer the production, and all that the business needs to do is just to transfer the existing equipment (calculated in the FDI I presume).

So, for the US company many cases the trasfer cost minimum ammunt of money (redundancy paymetn of the workers)
The capital investment into the buildings/ infrastructure creating(ed) a huge initial boost in the GDP.
So, the export industry created not just a few workplace next to the build line, but huge boost in construction.

This was the real driver, not the cheap workforce .
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
That
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without any barriers is the optimal arrangement for all sides is a favourite talking point of mainstream economics. A trade war is then clearly about objectives other than direct economic benefit, specifically hurting the other side to force it closer to your position. Just like with a hot war, unless one side has massive superiority, the "winning" country will also have to take damage to achieve its objectives.
In the US-China context, the trade imbalance issue is, in my opinion, partly another talking point and partly about America wanting more access to the Chinese market, which is more closed than most.
I don't agree that everything is an opinion and nothing can be known about some scenarios.
So now you just said that trade wars is NOT for economic benefit and both sides would hurt. Yeah, I agree with your points here, because they all are against what you formerly said you agreed with, which is that a trade war would benefit the US.

You don't think that predictions on the outcome a hypothetical future event qualifies as opinion? They're fact then? LOL Oh well...
Without overal trade deficit how can China provide dollars for international trade?

If you remove the US trade deficit, and say the US running trade surpluss then there is no money in the international trade to run trade surplusses, or even to facilitate the current level of international trade.

Means if China wants to replace the US as world hegemon then it needs a persistent overall trade deficit.
Man, totally off topic. Nobody here is talking about China being a world hegemon. That is called moving the goal post. This is about China having the ability to cushion the fallout of the US economic retaliation against SK if SK decided to no longer let itself be used in America's China containment strategy in order to realize its own national reunion. And once again, it's very questionable whether the US would even react in a way to attempt to destroy the SK economy for it.
Actualy, without the US and dollar the China / SK trade relations will be similar like between China and NK.

It is easy to get dollar now, but hard to get yuan for international trade, and extremly hard to get NK curreny for trade.

I think big part of the international smugling happens in dollar in NK , so they using actually the US currency to run the grey market economy.
And it's easy to get the dollar because the US highly encourages its use for trade and makes it highly available. If the US wants to shut off the availability of the dollar to China, Korea, (who else, Iran? Russia?) other political opponents, it creates regions in the world and vast economies (especially China) that the dollar has no pull on and as a result, it will drastically diminish the dominance and usability/utility of the dollar. If countries around the world knew that they couldn't buy South Korean electronics or anything made in China with the dollar, they will be much less inclined to use it/accept it. So this is just like your semi-conductor manufacturing machine example. The US is dominant because it loves to sell and do its best for all its clients, but if it wants to make itself scarce and use its dominance as a weapon, it will be replaced by the next best rival. Dropping off from on top is easy; climbing back up is a killer.
 
Yes, you are absolutly correct : )
However I have to say that this condition created (unnecessary) a zero sum game for the US/Chinese elites (I don't think that we can diferensiate them at this point any more) , for the US workers and for the Chinese workers.

Additionaly it created deep rooted imballances and tesnions in the Chinese / US economy and job markets.

I mean, the trade surpluss and crazy level of investment activity in China doesn't benefit the masses at all, it creating the illusion of wealth for the Chinese elite.


The most interesting from this standpoint is how the North Korean economy will transform in the comming years.

China / Russia/ eastern europe choose a way to integrating the with US economical system by different level, but in North Korea thye made a biizare mixture of wild west style , everything free without taxes and rules economy living together with state owned enterprises.

IT reminds me to the 80s Hungarian economy.

The most interesting is they are doing it with minimal, mainly Chinese support and capital injection, and even the later is in the form of machines ,and oil.

I think NK doing at the moment the most interesting economical / political experiment on the earth : )


Anyway, the most interesting will be how they will handle the widening efficiency gap between the SOEs and the street rat style, extremly efficient micro businesses.

In China they can cover this gap by using up foreign capital, but in NK they can't .

Very interesting : D

You lost me with this convoluted post which seems to contradict what we appeared to agree on earlier - that investments from the UK/US into China result in a bigger slice of the overall pie for UK/US investors/employers, a smaller slice for UK/US workers, but also a bigger slice for China employers and workers. This is only possible as trade surplus and investment activity into China indeed do benefit the Chinese masses in the form of increasing know-how, better paying jobs, and improving standards of living.

This is the inconvenient truth aspect of the issue that is avoided like the plague in most discussions as it actually lays out accountability where it belongs while also denting egos on all sides. It also reflects some of the reasons why economic reform in an underdeveloped economy such as North Korea's is so difficult.
 
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Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
So now you just said that trade wars is NOT for economic benefit and both sides would hurt. Yeah, I agree with your points here, because they all are against what you formerly said you agreed with, which is that a trade war would benefit the US.
Once again your characterization of others' positions is wrong.
You don't think that predictions on the outcome a hypothetical future event qualifies as opinion? They're fact then? LOL Oh well...
Will China see higher growth than France in 2018? Could the US defeat Iran in a war? Will Costa Rica win the 2022 FIFA World Cup? Will manqiangrexue ever not misunderstand simple points?
Just some questions about the future where no answers are possible, it's all opinion.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Once again your characterization of others' positions is wrong.

Will China see higher growth than France in 2018? Could the US defeat Iran in a war? Will Costa Rica win the 2022 FIFA World Cup? Will manqiangrexue ever not misunderstand simple points?
Just some questions about the future where no answers are possible, it's all opinion.
Uh no, it's not. It's you moving the goalpost to try to cover up how wrong you are. You first said that the US would BENEFIT from a trade war with China. Then, you proceeded to explain why you thought it would be LESS DAMAGING to the US. Those are two very different positions. You abandoned your position and moved to one that was much easier to defend and pretended that you were there all along. Its all embarrassingly there in black and white: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-strategy-in-korean-peninsula.t6680/page-135#post-491426

Oh, so you think this is an obvious answer. So it's very simple, right? I gave you too much credit before as someone who might understand a bit of the complexities of economics. (Sorry, my old habit of giving people too much credit somewhat after they've proven they don't deserve it just like your old habit of not checking sources and making wrong statements and trying to cover them up.) That puts you in the same boat as your twin again, as simple-minded people who think that complex problems that experts all over the world debate, are very simple, like "1+1=2". LOL
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
You lost me with this convoluted post which seems to contradict what we appeared to agree on earlier - that investments from the UK/US into China result in a bigger slice of the overall pie for UK/US investors/employers, a smaller slice for UK/US workers, but also a bigger slice for China employers and workers. This is only possible as trade surplus and investment activity into China indeed do benefit the Chinese masses in the form of increasing know-how, better paying jobs, and improving standards of living.

This is the inconvenient truth aspect of the issue that is avoided like the plague in most discussions as it actually lays out accountability where it belongs while also denting egos on all sides. It also reflects some of the reasons why economic reform in an underdeveloped economy such as North Korea's is so difficult.
My point is simple : the export oritented development has very hard upper limits. Actualy in the long term the export driven phase of development will not help the country to be an advanced ecnonomy, but makes it more difficult to reach that stage.
trade surpluss means that the country created an industrial /service base that is not working for the benefit of the citizens , but rather than it makes stuff for someone overweas.


Say China makes a lot of stuff for the US market.
But the industrial profile that required by the US is not the same that the average chinese needs , and doesn't take into consideration China natrual resources / geographical constraints .


And finaly: exampel in NK the main problem with the development of the economy is not that they can't receive foreign managers, who can show the clear genius of the american mind and how to make machines, but the lack of owneership registry, enforcement, legal help for low cost taxation, business creation, law and contractual enforcement, fair and developed personal work/injury/transaction legal support .


The export oriented growth won't make these ingrediens, actualy it shift the day of reckoning to the future about the need to implement these.

But if you have these in place then the internal market, and the business dinamic will take care of the problems in the country wihout the need for FDI and JVs and trade.

The main issue that NK will face exapmle is connected to the new micro/small business registration, ownership structures, taxation and so on, not realy to that if they can register JVs with american companies in north korea, and to get the extremly clever US managers to show how to run a business : P


And finaly a trade surpluss will create a class of business owners who has a lot of foreign assets, and interested in that to form the given country politics to be friendly with the home country of the assets that they own.


So, if China accumulated a lot of trade surpluss then it has a lot of Chinese company owner who has many US assets, and want to convince the decision makers to take into consideration the interest of the US instead the interest of the average chinese.
 
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