China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Equation]

One would like to think that the Vietnamese government will be smart enough to change their propaganda/education stance on China, as it is detrimental to their long-term interests.

They don't care they just need enough nationalist supporters to drowned out the majority.

 

[jobjed]

They don't care they just need enough nationalist supporters to drowned out the majority.

Stop giving credit where none is due. The Vietnamese government isn't the problem, the Vietnamese people are. The CPV is a calming influence on the wider population just as the Saudi royal family is a calming influence on the fanatical Saudi population.

There's this weird tendency in the West to separate people from government as if the latter is always exploiting the former and the former is never at fault. Sometimes, in fact, most times, the people are just as bad if not worse than their government. The government, after all, are composed of individuals who, before they became officials, were part of the wider population, and they reflect the wider views of that population.

Just as the wider Chinese population holds Japanese in disdain for their disgusting conduct in WW2 and their cowardly refusal to own up to them, the CPC simply reflects this disdain in their PR releases and education program. This isn't a matter of the "evil Chinese government misleading the Chinese people", it's exactly the Chinese people themselves who demand the government address the Japanese issue the way they do. Likewise with Vietnam, it isn't a case of "Vietnamese government misleading the people", it's the Vietnamese people themselves who have a fanatical and irrational hatred of Chinese despite China having never marched an army down there to massacre their civilians.

There is no need to propose the existence of a complex theory of conspiracies and motives of an abstract Vietnamese "elite" or "leadership" to mislead the population into hating China, and indeed Occam's razor tells us not to. The simple truth is the Vietnamese people at large hate China without any input from their government.

And frankly, it's attitudes similar to yours that got them into hating China in the first place. You seem to think their population doesn't have the capacity to decide for themselves who to hate, as though their government is an omnipresent and omnipotent beast that brainwashes them into specifically hating China. That's extremely condescending way to think of Vietnamese and is essentially what the West thinks of China; as though Chinese people are retarded drones who can't decide for themselves what opinions to hold without input from the CPC.

This condescending attitude is what lost China most of her "allies", or more accurately, tributaries, and made them defect to the first available outside power. It's prudent to accept the reality that the Vietnamese PEOPLE, not their government, passionately hates China in their very bones. They have the capacity to feel this hate without their government's telling them so. Once you accept this reality, whatever solutions you come up with to deal with the Vietnamese will be far more effective and enduring. Right now, you seem to propose something akin to a regime change to install leaders who will not spread anti-Chinese propaganda. Yeah, that is never going to work. The Vietnamese people will not tolerate a government that doesn't reflect their views, and their view is China needs to be hated with all their heart. But because you think the problem lies only with their government, you think changing the government is going to solve the problem. It's not. The Vietnamese will overthrow the installed government and establish their own, except this time, they'll hate China even more (if that's even possible) for attempting to interfere with their country's internal affairs.

I have no viable solutions to the Vietnamese issue but I recognise it's not their government that's the root of the problem, it's the entire goddamn population. Whatever solution is adopted to address the Vietnamese problem MUST be applicable to the population, not just their government. To this end, please stop separating the CPV from the V as that will only fool you into adopting "solutions" that will not work and will just end up making the problem even worse.

 

[sanblvd]

Stop giving credit where none is due. The Vietnamese government isn't the problem, the Vietnamese people are. The CPV is a calming influence on the wider population just as the Saudi royal family is a calming influence on the fanatical Saudi population.

There's this weird tendency in the West to separate people from government as if the latter is always exploiting the former and the former is never at fault. Sometimes, in fact, most times, the people are just as bad if not worse than their government. The government, after all, are composed of individuals who, before they became officials, were part of the wider population, and they reflect the wider views of that population.

Just as the wider Chinese population holds Japanese in disdain for their disgusting conduct in WW2 and their cowardly refusal to own up to them, the CPC simply reflects this disdain in their PR releases and education program. This isn't a matter of the "evil Chinese government misleading the Chinese people", it's exactly the Chinese people themselves who demand the government address the Japanese issue the way they do. Likewise with Vietnam, it isn't a case of "Vietnamese government misleading the people", it's the Vietnamese people themselves who have a fanatical and irrational hatred of Chinese despite China having never marched an army down there to massacre their civilians.

There is no need to propose the existence of a complex theory of conspiracies and motives of an abstract Vietnamese "elite" or "leadership" to mislead the population into hating China, and indeed Occam's razor tells us not to. The simple truth is the Vietnamese people at large hate China without any input from their government.

And frankly, it's attitudes similar to yours that got them into hating China in the first place. You seem to think their population doesn't have the capacity to decide for themselves who to hate, as though their government is an omnipresent and omnipotent beast that brainwashes them into specifically hating China. That's extremely condescending way to think of Vietnamese and is essentially what the West thinks of China; as though Chinese people are retarded drones who can't decide for themselves what opinions to hold without input from the CPC.

This condescending attitude is what lost China most of her "allies", or more accurately, tributaries, and made them defect to the first available outside power. It's prudent to accept the reality that the Vietnamese PEOPLE, not their government, passionately hates China in their very bones. They have the capacity to feel this hate without their government's telling them so. Once you accept this reality, whatever solutions you come up with to deal with the Vietnamese will be far more effective and enduring. Right now, you seem to propose something akin to a regime change to install leaders who will not spread anti-Chinese propaganda. Yeah, that is never going to work. The Vietnamese people will not tolerate a government that doesn't reflect their views, and their view is China needs to be hated with all their heart. But because you think the problem lies only with their government, you think changing the government is going to solve the problem. It's not. The Vietnamese will overthrow the installed government and establish their own, except this time, they'll hate China even more (if that's even possible) for attempting to interfere with their country's internal affairs.

I have no viable solutions to the Vietnamese issue but I recognise it's not their government that's the root of the problem, it's the entire goddamn population. Whatever solution is adopted to address the Vietnamese problem MUST be applicable to the population, not just their government. To this end, please stop separating the CPV from the V as that will only fool you into adopting "solutions" that will not work and will just end up making the problem even worse.

This!!!! The hatred of Chinese in Vietnam is in ingrained into their psyche, there are few similar dynamic like this around the world, for example, Poland and Russia, Armenian and Turkey, Persians and Arab, Persians and Turks. Cambodia and Vietnam, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan etc... But I won't say in this situation of Vietnam and China is hopeless, because unlike all of the pair (exception to Poland and Russia) I listed above, the power parity difference between China and Vietnam is MASSIVE.

When China's power was absolutely dominate and overwhelming in Asia, Vietnam always submitted to China every time without exception. They did it during Ming and Qing, they might not like it, but did submit.

Its only with the failure of Qing that all of China's tributary nations broke away, so the only way to reestablish this old connection is simply for China to get strong again. China don't need to invade Vietnam because Vietnam knows China will invade them if push come to shove. The 1979 war didn't end at 1979, there were brutal border skirmish all the way from 1979 to 1988 until Vietnam withdraw from Cambodia and decide to reestablish normal relationship with China, not to mention the 2 battle they fought in SCS which Vietnam lost badly.

There are other ways China can do, for example help build up Cambodia, Thailand, Laos whom all hates Vietnam as much as Vietnam hates China, the day when Vietnam realize they are surrounded by Chinese allies is the day Vietnam has to seek good relations with China.

 

[Equation]

Stop giving credit where none is due. The Vietnamese government isn't the problem, the Vietnamese people are. The CPV is a calming influence on the wider population just as the Saudi royal family is a calming influence on the fanatical Saudi population.

There's this weird tendency in the West to separate people from government as if the latter is always exploiting the former and the former is never at fault. Sometimes, in fact, most times, the people are just as bad if not worse than their government. The government, after all, are composed of individuals who, before they became officials, were part of the wider population, and they reflect the wider views of that population.

Just as the wider Chinese population holds Japanese in disdain for their disgusting conduct in WW2 and their cowardly refusal to own up to them, the CPC simply reflects this disdain in their PR releases and education program. This isn't a matter of the "evil Chinese government misleading the Chinese people", it's exactly the Chinese people themselves who demand the government address the Japanese issue the way they do. Likewise with Vietnam, it isn't a case of "Vietnamese government misleading the people", it's the Vietnamese people themselves who have a fanatical and irrational hatred of Chinese despite China having never marched an army down there to massacre their civilians.

There is no need to propose the existence of a complex theory of conspiracies and motives of an abstract Vietnamese "elite" or "leadership" to mislead the population into hating China, and indeed Occam's razor tells us not to. The simple truth is the Vietnamese people at large hate China without any input from their government.

And frankly, it's attitudes similar to yours that got them into hating China in the first place. You seem to think their population doesn't have the capacity to decide for themselves who to hate, as though their government is an omnipresent and omnipotent beast that brainwashes them into specifically hating China. That's extremely condescending way to think of Vietnamese and is essentially what the West thinks of China; as though Chinese people are retarded drones who can't decide for themselves what opinions to hold without input from the CPC.

This condescending attitude is what lost China most of her "allies", or more accurately, tributaries, and made them defect to the first available outside power. It's prudent to accept the reality that the Vietnamese PEOPLE, not their government, passionately hates China in their very bones. They have the capacity to feel this hate without their government's telling them so. Once you accept this reality, whatever solutions you come up with to deal with the Vietnamese will be far more effective and enduring. Right now, you seem to propose something akin to a regime change to install leaders who will not spread anti-Chinese propaganda. Yeah, that is never going to work. The Vietnamese people will not tolerate a government that doesn't reflect their views, and their view is China needs to be hated with all their heart. But because you think the problem lies only with their government, you think changing the government is going to solve the problem. It's not. The Vietnamese will overthrow the installed government and establish their own, except this time, they'll hate China even more (if that's even possible) for attempting to interfere with their country's internal affairs.

I have no viable solutions to the Vietnamese issue but I recognise it's not their government that's the root of the problem, it's the entire goddamn population. Whatever solution is adopted to address the Vietnamese problem MUST be applicable to the population, not just their government. To this end, please stop separating the CPV from the V as that will only fool you into adopting "solutions" that will not work and will just end up making the problem even worse.

NOT all Vietnamese felt that way before, today or tomorrow. If they did, the two groups of people would not still be marrying each other and happily having mixed ethnic children while still sharing a lot of similar culture. The hatred from others were brainwashed by the upper ruling class who thinks they are the original masters and know what's good for the Vietnamese people. It's a tribal attitude that don't belong in today's 21st century.

 

[Figaro]

NOT all Vietnamese felt that way before, today or tomorrow. If they did, the two groups of people would not still be marrying each other and happily having mixed ethnic children while still sharing a lot of similar culture. The hatred from others were brainwashed by the upper ruling class who thinks they are the original masters and know what's good for the Vietnamese people. It's a tribal attitude that don't belong in today's 21st century.

Nobody should be an apologist for Vietnam's heinous crimes. The matter of the fact is the Vietnamese hate Chinese with an indisputable passion. Whether it was fueled by ethnic discontent or racial government policies, the Vietnamese do not like the Chinese in any way whatsoever. Why isolate the blame on the Vietnamese government when the entire populace supports and embraces this ethnic hatred? The Chinese government needs to realize that not only does the Viet government not like their's, but Vietnamese constituents absolutely hate the Chinese people. Back in May 2014, Vietnamese mobs rampaged and killed Chinese factory workers despite not being sanctioned by their government. These uncivilized brutes indiscriminately murdered anyone Chinese, including a couple Taiwanese who were in no way affiliated with mainland operations. It was the Vietnamese government that was forced to rein in on the riots, otherwise the bloodshed would've gone on for much longer. Ethnic hatred shows no political boundaries; China ought to accept that and the fact that Vietnam does not have any intention of pursing good relations with its much larger neighbor. If you go look at the opinion polls, Vietnamese have an around 10% favor-ability rating towards the Chinese and it has been static even without geopolitical flare-ups. Compare that to Filipinos who have a 60% positive attitude towards China and even Japan, which had a near 50% just 10 years ago. Perhaps China has got the memo already; it started constructing islands in the SCS despite fierce Vietnamese resistance.

 

[sanblvd]

Speaking of how different country sees China.

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[AssassinsMace]

Let's not forget countries in Asia are some of the most petty nationalistic people in the world. So it doesn't really matter if who did this or did that or who did it first especially if the US sides with whoever. Vietnamese were the first to start island reclamation. Read what they say today and they act like they're the innocent little lambs. Nationalistic people don't have the conscience to recognize anything they do that is wrong especially if the US backs up their lies.

Like I've been saying... If China wants to send a message, no more trying to act neutral or a compromiser. If Vietnam is being a bug and their citizens are wholly ignorant, then China should cut them off to let them see how hard it is to do everything themselves. And if the Vietnamese expect foreign corporations to do it for them, prices rises and Vietnam won't be so cheap for foreign outsourcers after all. Foreign corporations who outsource to Vietnam still want to sell what they make there to China. Nope. And most importantly China should use the same excuses the US uses in taking trade action.

China's neighbors are greedy. It doesn't matter how much they hate China because their need to make more money is paramount over their petty nationalism. They hate everyone just for being not them. You think they like each other but China? No, they just hate each other less depending on the circumstances of the month. The only ones that care about hating more only do it because they're not the ones directly making the money.

 

[PiSigma]

This thread is turning into a hate fest. I suggest you guys cool it on the anti Vietnam anti american and anti who ever looks at you weird rants. Or else I'm sure one of the mods will close this.

 

[kurutoga]

LOL what is wrong with Poland?

 

[AssassinsMace]

Not surprised by Poland. The Eastern European countries post Cold War tend to be anti-communist plus a lot of envy regarding China I read about that they were suppose to be the post Cold War benefactors.