China's SCS Strategy Thread

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Ok than what action should China take to STOP Vietnam from cutting the optic cable (since that also qualifies as a drastic action in itself) when dialogue don't seem to work? Actions speaks louder than words in this case, so China has no choice but to respond to protect their territory. The percentage you're talking about these so called countries turning their backs on China has no merits because there's no proof, it's just an invention. The whole ASEAN countries are NOT on tip toes with a growing China, that's just a western perception and ruse to paint China in a bad and unfair light to stir up trouble in the region.

First thing. Are we 100% sure that Vietnam is the culprit cutting the optic cables? Are there any hard evidence? Show it to the government and see what the Vietnamese government would do, what action are they going to take for doing that. That is how the game is being played.

Don't forget in recent past, Vietnam also accused the Chinese of cutting cables.

Secondly... there is no invention, just common sense. Do you want to be friend with a nation that would launch an attack on another nation for a small incident of cut optic cable? Let me say this... not the whole of ASEAN is in bad relationship with China, that is for sure and I do not care for what the western media said about China. Frankly I don't believe them.

But once China did any drastic actions... then I am sure many countries will be frighten... Because... up till now, no one actually talk of the cut cables.

Things are not as simple as, you are strong, so you can do as you like, even when provoked. So far the Chinese are showing tolerance in this area and I applaud them. In actual fact, they play the game pretty well thus far. People in my country are criticizing Vietnam for the riot and smashing of factories. However, if China take whatever drastic action like diverting water and the such... the feeling will turn. People are still more sympathetic to weaker nations.

Anyway, that is my point of view and I have presented my case as a normal citizen in one of the countries in ASEAN. I do not want to continue this meaningless discussion for risk of damaging our friendship. Take it as I have backed down, for whatever reason.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Ok than what action should China take to STOP Vietnam from cutting the optic cable (since that also qualifies as a drastic action in itself) when dialogue don't seem to work?

Capture it on film and document it. That PR value would be tremendous. Also, if capturing on film, more than likely an intervention and arrest can be made. That's one diplomatic coup. The cable can be repaired and/or replaced. But scoring that moment is a worthy ROI.
 

Geographer

Junior Member
Joshuatree is right--naming and shaming can be a powerful strategy against such mischief. I'm reminded of the different Chinese reponses to riots in Tibet and Xinjiang a few years ago. In Tibet their strategy was a complete media blackout, and the foreign press predictably hammered China for it. A year(?) after that, there were major riots in Xinjiang. This time the Chinese government executed a slick media campaign to push their point-of-view, and foreign sympathy for the rioters was much lower.

China has been caught flat-footed on the PR front in the South China Sea. Ninety five percent of all the coverage in the oil rig crisis is Vietnamese, so foreigners interested in the situation only hear the Vietnamese point-of-view. Why doesn't China aggressively promote its point-of-view? Why isn't China holding weekly or daily press conferences and inviting foreign journalists to travel on its coast guard ships like Vietnam is? Why isn't China releasing videos of Vietnamese ships ramming Chinese ships as China claims?

I think the answer is China wants to downplay the whole thing but that hasn't worked. Vietnam has been very effective in making this a big deal in the region and the world. Now China has to catch up if it wants to affect international perception of the crisis.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Writing blank checks or giving few million dollars to buy a tail of F-16 fighters?
No, A.Man, he is simply saying that these nations make their own choices...on both sides.

The US is not "pushing," them. It, like all other nations, is trying to act out of its self interests. To believe anything different of any nation is a fallacy.

Now, at times you get weak and ineffective leadership, which the US is experiencing now.

Other nations will try and take advantage of that...and that is no surprise. Some other's will be wary of US promises...which is also no surprise.

But they are all acting out of what they feel are their own self interest, to leverage it one way or another. The only ones who can be rightfully blamed for that are the ones making the decisions themselves. Even when they, as you say, "miscalculate."

And "miscalculating," is a two-edged sword that can cut both ways. But that too is something any nation and its diplomats are aware of and have to take into consideration.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Vietnam with the help of Exxon to which Obama had to give permission have been exploring for oil and gas in the same area where China put up its oil derrick. Did you hear the media talking how that's a provocative act by Vietnam... and the US? Catching the Vietnamese in the act in anything won't do anything because Obama and the media have a narrative they don't want to be contradicted. Boko Haram attacked a Chinese facility and ten Chinese are missing. I've seen nothing of it mentioned on US TV news. It's clear there's an effort to make sure China is not seen as the one as being wronged. Why should China allow the media free access when they're very likely without conscious to make stuff up. If we weren't talking about China, everyone would agree the media lies. Without a beat Obama has continued the strategy that was interrupted by Edward Snowden and indicted Chinese individuals for cyber espionage to which he was going to do a year ago when the only narrative was China was the only one doing it. I don't even see it being mentioned on TV news that the Vietnamese rioters burned down non-Chinese factories. They just call it anti-Chinese riots. Tearing down an illegal church in China is suppose to be an excessive act where the punishment doesn't fit the crime but somehow killing an unknown number of Chinese over an oil derrick being erected that killed no Vietnamese is a fair response?
 
At the end of the day, as part of how everyone is the one responsible for looking out for themselves, they are also the one responsible for making their point of view heard. China certainly has the resources to make its point in the media in other languages (including English), on the internet, and in other countries. It would seem they were ill-prepared on the PR front on this spat with Vietnam especially considering the rig move was China's own initiative. Maybe they are afraid of inciting Chinese riots and damaging their own image like what happened with the anti-Japanese protests.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Vietnam with the help of Exxon to which Obama had to give permission have been exploring for oil and gas in the same area where China put up its oil derrick. Did you hear the media talking how that's a provocative act by Vietnam... and the US? Catching the Vietnamese in the act in anything won't do anything because Obama and the media have a narrative they don't want to be contradicted. Boko Haram attacked a Chinese facility and ten Chinese are missing. I've seen nothing of it mentioned on US TV news. It's clear there's an effort to make sure China is not seen as the one as being wronged.
Nobody is saying that anything like what you have said is okay AssassinsMace.

I have seen reports in the US Media, particularly on Fox News about the attack on the Chinese facility and the missing.

The same for the rioting in Vietnam including the killings and about other places being attacked too.

Numerous US media outlets are condemning and investigating PRISM and everything associated with it, and many politicans running in America for these mid-term elections are referencing it and making it a part of their campaign.

Finally, there are a lot of people pointing out that what is going on in the South China Sea is basically a conflict over resources by serveral countries, not just China.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>>>> MORDERATOR INSTRUCTION >>>>>>>>>>>>

This entire line of reasoning and discussion about how China or any other country is viewed in the meida or politically is off topic, and political.

SD is not here to solve the political differences...it cannot.

SD is not here to aire grievances. It is not the proper place or forum.

SD is a Sino Defence forum that also dissusses other defence related issues...principally the technology and how it is employed tactically and militarily, not the political reasoning.

Whenever we drift into that, invariably there are arguements, high emotion, and problems on the forum. That is why we have a rule against this sort of thing.

Please stay away from the politics and grievances and get back on topic.

Thanks you.

Do not respond to this moderation.



>>>>>>>>>> END MORDERATOR INSTRUCTION >>>>>>>>>>
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like Vietnam and the Philippines have joined forces to oppose China.

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MANILA, Philippines (AP) — Vietnam and the Philippines will jointly oppose "illegal" Chinese actions in the South China Sea, Vietnam's prime minster said Wednesday in a rare show of public solidarity between two Southeast Asian nations wrestling with Beijing's determination to assert its sovereignty claims in the disputed waters.

Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung, standing beside President Benigno Aquino III after they held talks in Manila, called on the world to condemn China for causing what he called an "extremely dangerous" situation in the South China Sea by deploying an oil rig near an island that both Vietnam and China claim.

China claims nearly all of the South China Sea, putting it into conflict with Vietnam and the Philippines, which have rival claims.

The "president and I shared deep concern over the current extremely dangerous situation caused by China's many actions that violate international law," Dung told a news conference.

"The two sides are determined to oppose China's violations and call on countries and the international community to continue strongly condemning China and demanding China to immediately end the above said violations," he said.

The Philippines, a U.S. treaty ally, has been more vocal in opposing China than Vietnam, which has been trying to quietly resolve its territorial dispute with Beijing using ties between the two country's Communist parties. But Hanoi was incensed by the deployment of the oil rig on May 1, leading to speculation it would shift its approach.
View gallery
Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung walks past …
Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung walks past members of an honor guard shortly upon arrival …

Last year, the Philippines filed a case against the Chinese claims at a U.N. tribunal, to Beijing's displeasure.

Analysts have said Vietnam might now file its own appeal or join Manila's legal challenge against China.

The Philippines took the legal step after exhausting other peaceful means to resolve its territorial disputes with China, Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario said.

"I think Vietnam should make an assessment as to whether resorting to legal means is promotive of their national interest," del Rosario said.

The deployment of the oil rig has led to the most serious outbreak of tensions in the South China Sea in years.
View gallery
Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung waves to …
Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung waves to media shortly upon arrival at the Manila Internat …

Vietnam dispatched ships to confront the Chinese oil rig that have jostled with Chinese vessels defending it. Last week rioting broke out in Vietnam that killed at least two Chinese workers and wounded more than 100 others.

Aquino did not mention the territorial disputes with China when he and Dung faced journalists but said they discussed how their countries could enhance defense and economic ties, adding that both governments aim to double two-way trade to $3 billion in two years. The two countries are now considering raising their ties to a "strategic partnership."

"In defense and security, we discussed how we can enhance confidence-building, our defense capabilities and inter-operability in addressing security challenges," Aquino said.

China and the Philippines are in a standoff over another South China Sea reef, the Second Thomas Shoal. Chinese coast guard ships have thrice attempted to block Filipino vessels delivering new military personnel and food supplies to Philippine marines keeping watch on the disputed area on board a long-grounded ship.

Many have feared the long-seething territorial disputes in the resource-rich South China Sea could spark Asia's next major armed conflict. Brunei, Malaysia and Taiwan also have overlapping territorial claims in the strategic area, but the disputes between China, on the one hand, and Vietnam and the Philippines, on the other, have particularly flared in recent years.

China has steadfastly said that virtually the entire South China Sea has belonged to it since ancient times.

Chinese maritime surveillance ships took effective control of Scarborough Shoal off the northwestern Philippines after Filipino government vessels withdrew from the disputed fishing ground two years ago. Alarmed by China's move, the Philippines challenged the legality of Beijing's vast territorial claims in the South China Sea before an international arbitration tribunal last year.

Your little racial remark is not welcomed here
- TUP
 
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A.Man

Major
A Different Voice From The Natioanl Interest

Could Washington Be Dragged into a "Sea" of Fire?

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Tensions are rising in the East and South China Seas. America needs to walk a fine line between appeasement and confrontation when it comes to China.

Ted Galen Carpenter

May 24, 2014

Tensions are rising fast in East Asia as relations between China and several of its neighbors continue to deteriorate. There have been ominous developments in just the past few days. Speaking in Shanghai to the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA), Chinese President Xi Jinping issued a veiled warning to countries about forming or strengthening alliances to counter China. “To beef up military alliances targeted at a third party is not conducive to maintaining common security in the region,” he admonished. Just hours later, the governments of Vietnam and the Philippines issued a statement that they would jointly oppose “illegal” Chinese actions in the South China Sea.

Manila has steadily escalated its territorial disputes with Beijing regarding the South China Sea in recent years, and China’s decision to build an oil drilling platform in disputed waters has caused its simmering dispute with Hanoi to flare. Although the new bilateral statement falls far short of being an “alliance,” it does indicate the formation of a common front against China’s policies.




Such developments place Washington in a most uncomfortable position. As the world’s leading maritime power, the United States cannot readily concede China’s extremely ambitious territorial claims. Those claims regarding the South China Sea, for example, encompass some 90 percent of that body of water. Much of the world’s commerce, including U.S. trade, passes through the sea lanes in the region. Allowing the South China Sea to gradually become de facto Chinese territorial waters through the creation of a vast Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) would give China a strategic stranglehold in an important region, something that is clearly not in America’s best interests.

At the same time, it is unwise for Washington to provoke Beijing by reflexively backing the positions of its territorial rivals. Yet the Obama administration has done precisely that, especially with regard to the Philippines. U.S. military cooperation with Manila is rapidly increasing, and Washington rarely misses an opportunity to offer diplomatic support to President Benigno Aquino’s stance on the South China Sea.

That approach runs the risk of allowing an allied tail to wag the American dog. Philippines officials have already asserted that the long-standing bilateral defense treaty obligates the United States to come to Manila’s aid if China resorts to force regarding disputed territory. Japan has adopted a similar position regarding possible conflict with China over the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea. Although Washington has not yet publicly endorsed Manila’s interpretation of its security agreement with the United States, Obama administration officials have echoed Tokyo’s interpretation of the U.S.-Japan defense treaty.

Such a posture is profoundly unwise. The various territorial claims in the South China Sea are murky, from the standpoint of both law and history. Beijing’s claims do seem excessively broad and were certain to be resisted by other countries, but they are not outrageous. Given America’s own economic and security interests, the United States cannot prudently appease China by accepting Beijing’s maximum position, but U.S. officials also must be careful not to encourage excessively bold claims by the Philippines, Vietnam and other parties—especially if those countries cannot sustain their positions without U.S. military support.

The situation with respect to the Chinese-Japanese feud in the East China Sea is at least as delicate. Japan is more relevant than any or all of the South China Sea countries as a strategic counterweight to China, and it is Washington’s most important ally in East Asia. Yet Beijing’s historical claim to the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands may be stronger than its claims in the South China Sea. Although the islands were not included in the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki, which transferred Taiwan and other territories as spoils to Japan following the Sino-Japanese War, Tokyo took control of those islands the same year. The timing may have been coincidental, but Chinese officials and scholars argue strongly that it was all part of Japan’s aggressive territorial expansion, largely at China’s expense, and that the islands should have been “restored” to China after World War II, just as Taiwan and the other conquered territories were.

As with the competing claims in the South China Sea, it is extremely difficult to determine which country has law and history on its side. And given the strategic importance of the East China Sea, U.S. leaders are understandably reluctant to alter the status quo to Beijing’s benefit.

But Washington needs to explore ways in which it can accommodate some Chinese territorial objectives without needlessly undermining American interests. A middle course between appeasement and confrontation is essential. The current, implicit policy of “anyone but China” regarding the various claims is neither equitable nor sustainable. Moreover, whatever positions the United States adopts regarding the South China Sea and the East China Sea, they should be based on a careful assessment of America’s best interests, not the interests and agendas, much less the whims, of allies or clients.

Ted Galen Carpenter, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a contributing editor to The National Interest, is the author of nine books and more than 550 articles and policy studies on international affairs.
 
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