China's overland Silk Road and Maritime Silk Road Thread

[AssassinsMace]

Let's not get fooled by the optics. The only reason why developed countries join OBOR is because they want the contracts to build infrastructure. So when these Western countries make a big deal about joining, it's not as magnanimous as the media makes it. You don't get contracts if you're not a part of OBOR. Also its money that's backed-up by OBOR meaning if a country defaults, contractors still get paid. That's why you can see Western countries join and wish for it to fail at the same time. China is the biggest donor to OBOR. If they donate more than they get in contracts, then that says something. But so far and I doubt they ever will give more than they see making. For the US, it's all about fear how the world will not be beholden to them. The West or Japan or India wanting to start their own alternative never did this before because they could care less if any of these countries developed or they would've done it already. Just like TPP. If it were so great why didn't they do it decades before? All they're doing and they have to do it now is countering China because they don't want the kind of influence China will have that they expect now from other countries they assist. And China should keep this in mind where the critics of OBOR are the Soviet Union having to spend money just to counter the US and then going bankrupt that ended the Cold War.

 

[gelgoog]

Actually Japan did do that in like the late 1980s. The problem was their economy collapsed before any of the major projects could be made.
One example would be the high speed rail line in Taiwan. Japan also financed the Russian Federation so they could start gas exploration on Sakhalin at a time few would invest there IIRC. They also started a project to build a canal in Thailand to bypass the Singapore Strait but, like I said, their economy collapsed. They still do finance projects on Southeast Asia but the scope is usually a lot more limited.

With regards to Western investments, speaking for Europe, since any investments by European states or companies are branded as some form of "colonialism" we typically don't do them any more. Even if you give food aid, it is considered to be an attack on someone else's agricultural sector. You can't even give things for free. So... why bother. Now when we have surplus food we typically just bury it. Back in the Cold War the US and the USSR constantly sabotaged all European investments into Africa. First by removing any remaining colonies. Then later by claiming any investments were "colonization" in some form. As a result Africa is now poorer vs the rest of the world than before the Cold War started and a lot of countries there gained independence.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The only reason why the West, Japan, or India are claiming to start a counter to OBOR is because China is doing one. If any one of them were doing it before, there wouldn't be criticism and fear over China because these countries are getting help from someone else. China already recognizes giving aid doesn't work. That just creates dependents. And the West criticizes China for not following their aid model. Aid is colonialism because all the control is given to the one giving aid. You have to do what they say or you don't get aid. And that's why those for aid like the aid model because they're the ones in control. Handing out aid doesn't teach people to take care of themselves. They become dependent on aid. China does business and builds infrastructure and eventually these countries can take care of themselves. There's the Chinese saying, "Give a man a fish and he can feed himself for day. Teach a man to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life." The West gives a man a fish. China teaches a man how to fish.

The West doesn't go that far because they know if they build roads, schools, hospitals, or power plants, it could be all for nothing because they don't know if that country will be friendly in the future and they would have wasted their money. That's why the US likes the aid model. Food and medicine is cheap and only last as long as people use it and they will always need more. If you look at Venezuela apparently if the Guido government takes over, China loses all it's money it invested into Venezuela or Guido wouldn't have promised to China to honor loans Venezuela took from China in exchange for dropping support for Maduro. If that's the case, what is the West worried about all these countries taking loans for infrastructure from China? If these countries don't want to pay China back, they can just run to the US and the US will cancel their debts to China for them like in Venezuela. But that's not what's really going. These countries have been ignore by the West except when they're needed to fight an enemy for them. And these people know that the US will abandon you when they don't need you anymore and easily side with your enemy afterwards. China is the biggest example. The US wouldn't have won the Cold War without China and look at how the treat China now. And look what happened to staunch Cold War ally Pakistan. Everything they hate about Pakistan today is a result of the US abandoning Pakistan.

 

[gelgoog]

I would not call building infrastructure, packing up, and leaving, teaching someone how to fish.
Still the fact is a lot of these countries will struggle with massive developmental problems unless massive infrastructure investments are made first.
Yet if someone in Europe built transport infrastructure in Africa it was typically considered exploitative back then.
It might have been. But it was also a requirement to bootstrap the economy. Today we see people make the same argument about Chinese transport investments. That they are just being made so the natural resources in those places can be extracted out more easily to ship back to China.

The British built a massive railroad system that is still being used today in India for example. They might have had their own purposes for building it, but it is still a source of wealth for the residents there even today. Similar railroads were built in Africa back then. Massive investments in Africa were made. In several cases African countries had more track than European countries at one point.

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So you see. Infrastructure is "evil". "Colonialism" is evil. Natch. That is the message we got from the USA and USSR empires.

One of the major reasons for Africa being in the economic situation that it is is malaria and other tropical diseases. These mean large cattle in those areas has a low chance to survive. Also the crops which are grown in those areas never were properly mechanized or had their production optimized. So you basically need a lot of manual labor with workers suffering from malaria and other diseases. That's why a lot of these countries right now would have an easier time if they just imported food for example. In colonial times they simply brought food from where it could be grown more easily and those places which could not grow cattle, for example, would survive on extractive industries which were more profitable and use the revenue from that to get meat.

This reminds me of what happened in Cuba after Castro got in power for example. They decided they should grow all their own food to become self-reliant and stop growing sugarcane, etc. It turned out it was uneconomic to do it at a large scale. So they went back to growing sugar and exchanging that with the Soviet Union in exchange for things they did not have like food or timber. It is dumb not to take advantage of what is your competitive and trade advantage.

Today there are all sorts of programs to develop genetically engineered crops that can grow in tropical regions. But I really wonder if they are a good idea. Sure the investments could be done, but even if you have the crop, there is the issue of mechanization like I said. We took centuries to develop farming in the temperate zone. This is why it was so easy to move to, say, North America, but Africa and South America are a whole different ballgame. Even South America had the advantage that it did not have certain tropical diseases until recently. It also has a much larger temperate zone. There is no equivalent of Argentina in Africa for example.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Actually Japan did do that in like the late 1980s. The problem was their economy collapsed before any of the major projects could be made.
One example would be the high speed rail line in Taiwan. Japan also financed the Russian Federation so they could start gas exploration on Sakhalin at a time few would invest there IIRC. They also started a project to build a canal in Thailand to bypass the Singapore Strait but, like I said, their economy collapsed. They still do finance projects on Southeast Asia but the scope is usually a lot more limited.

With regards to Western investments, speaking for Europe, since any investments by European states or companies are branded as some form of "colonialism" we typically don't do them any more. Even if you give food aid, it is considered to be an attack on someone else's agricultural sector. You can't even give things for free. So... why bother. Now when we have surplus food we typically just bury it. Back in the Cold War the US and the USSR constantly sabotaged all European investments into Africa. First by removing any remaining colonies. Then later by claiming any investments were "colonization" in some form. As a result Africa is now poorer vs the rest of the world than before the Cold War started and a lot of countries there gained independence.

Well actually it is not the same .After the WWII on the suggestion of American diplomat to smooth out relation with the neighbor after brutal occupation,.Japan set up ADB(Asian development Bank) with HQ in Manila to channel aid
Japan aid is not come out of the goodness of the Japanese It meant to be self serving

It is a kind of atonement after their dastardly deed in WW II as such the scope is limited A Bridge here, A Power Plant there maybe some ports, It was never all encompassing relation which Japan never has with Asia
BTW most of them are soft loan with low interest But still a loan and not a grant meaning the receiving country still
has to pay every single cents
Another thing the loan can only be used to buy Japanese good and service so it is a kind of trade promotion
There is no ambition to coral ed Asia into a trading bloc . they blew up their chance with WWII aggression
They still exist but they have such a high standard in lending that only few project get funding It can never lead Asia to prosperity

What China did is completely different China open her vast market to the neighbors and all the aid is to facilitate the trade It was based on the ancient trade route that exists before the west come to Asia
As such it is more ambitious and all encompassing It has geo politic implication What China did is to open the countries for trade allowing them to participate in Chinese prosperity. If you notice all chinese investment is to smooth out trade relation They built Port, communication link, Internet, rail road , airport etc.

Where trade lead normally politic follow That is why US, Japan, India scare of it because if it succeed they will be locked out of a huge trading bloc
Knowing some of those countries will never qualified for loan using the western centric standard China lower the bar for those countries to get a loan and for some of the poorest outright grant instead of loan
Again it was never meant to be handout but it serve China;'s interest of making people rich first in order for them to buy Chinese goods

So NO it is not because of Japanese lost decade that the aid stops but it was limited engagement in first place

 

[AssassinsMace]

I would not call building infrastructure, packing up, and leaving, teaching someone how to fish.
Still the fact is a lot of these countries will struggle with massive developmental problems unless massive infrastructure investments are made first.
Yet if someone in Europe built transport infrastructure in Africa it was typically considered exploitative back then.
It might have been. But it was also a requirement to bootstrap the economy. Today we see people make the same argument about Chinese transport investments. That they are just being made so the natural resources in those places can be extracted out more easily to ship back to China.

The British built a massive railroad system that is still being used today in India for example. They might have had their own purposes for building it, but it is still a source of wealth for the residents there even today. Similar railroads were built in Africa back then. Massive investments in Africa were made. In several cases African countries had more track than European countries at one point.

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So you see. Infrastructure is "evil". "Colonialism" is evil. Natch. That is the message we got from the USA and USSR empires.

One of the major reasons for Africa being in the economic situation that it is is malaria and other tropical diseases. These mean large cattle in those areas has a low chance to survive. Also the crops which are grown in those areas never were properly mechanized or had their production optimized. So you basically need a lot of manual labor with workers suffering from malaria and other diseases. That's why a lot of these countries right now would have an easier time if they just imported food for example. In colonial times they simply brought food from where it could be grown more easily and those places which could not grow cattle, for example, would survive on extractive industries which were more profitable and use the revenue from that to get meat.

This reminds me of what happened in Cuba after Castro got in power for example. They decided they should grow all their own food to become self-reliant and stop growing sugarcane, etc. It turned out it was uneconomic to do it at a large scale. So they went back to growing sugar and exchanging that with the Soviet Union in exchange for things they did not have like food or timber. It is dumb not to take advantage of what is your competitive and trade advantage.

Today there are all sorts of programs to develop genetically engineered crops that can grow in tropical regions. But I really wonder if they are a good idea. Sure the investments could be done, but even if you have the crop, there is the issue of mechanization like I said. We took centuries to develop farming in the temperate zone. This is why it was so easy to move to, say, North America, but Africa and South America are a whole different ballgame. Even South America had the advantage that it did not have certain tropical diseases until recently. It also has a much larger temperate zone. There is no equivalent of Argentina in Africa for example.

So you're saying China builds roads, schools, hospitals and power plants and take them home when they're done? Of course not. What you don't understand is a business arrangement is going on. That's an exchange in business that China gets resources in return. It works better than aid where it's all one-sided and it stops when it ends. And also a part of this exchange is China teaches these countries how to run this infrastructure. If Chinese stuck around running all the infrastructure, the West would spin China was occupying the country. I know a Filipino who told me that back in the 1960s and 70s the Japanese built all these roads in the Philippines as a humanitarian gesture. Problem was a lot of these roads went out to nowhere and then the Japanese left and that was it. Rumor was the Japanese did not build these roads as a humanitarian gesture. They built them to get to easy access and extract all the treasure the Japanese stole from Asia and hid during WWII.

 

[Dolcevita]

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Rise of China means growth of PH, neighbors: Locsin
By Joyce Ann L. Rocamora March 20, 2019, 8:41 pm

Foreign Affairs Secretary Teodoro Locsin Jr. at a joint press briefing with Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi in his first official visit to Beijing. (Photo courtesy of DFA-Office of Public Diplomacy/ Emilio Lopue)

MANILA-- Foreign Affairs Secretary Teodoro Locsin Jr. on Tuesday reaffirmed the Philippines support to China as the rising power in the East, saying the emergence of a "new China" creates a world where the developing nations have a chance.

Locsin said Manila has much to hope for, and nothing to fear from the rise of a new power. This, as it hoped for a "new world" where a state's goal to get richer is through helping others prosper.

Citing what he wrote in the Philippine-China memorandum of understanding on the Belt and Road Initiative, Locsin said there is no other country but the new China that aspired to rise higher by helping others rise alongside her.

"To put it in concrete terms, without the new China, there will be no prospect whatsoever for the developing world to grow into emerging economies. We would still be, as throughout the second half of the last century we were, at the mercy of Western markets which, on a whim, can turn us away—as they did throughout the post- and neo-colonial period," he said during a joint presser with State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Wednesday.

"The emergence of a new China is creating a world where the lesser have a chance. And more than a chance: cooperation for mutual benefit instead of words," he added.

On the two countries' cooperation, Locsin and Wang vowed to deepen Philippines-China relations.

Although a lot of work remains to be done, there are "greater advantages" in the two nations' collaboration across a wide range of areas, Locsin said.

"There is so much to look forward to and accomplish that will be of much greater value to both of us than those differences can ever be to each one," he noted.

Locsin also assured the Chinese official that Manila will look after the Chinese people in the Philippines.

"You have our assurance that the Philippines will look out for your people in my country as I have seen China look out for our people in yours," said Locsin, who is in Beijing for his first official visit to China.

Prior to his presser with Wang, he met with Vice President Wang Qishan, a stalwart of the Chinese Communist Party, who reaffirmed China’s commitment to further strengthening bilateral relations with Manila.

Also present during the meeting were Executive Secretary Salvador Medialdea and Philippine economic managers led by Finance Secretary Carlos Dominguez. (PNA)

 

[Dolcevita]

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Rail bridge connecting Russia, China completed
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By

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The Chinese city of Heihe is seen beyond the Amur River from the Russian city Blagoveshchensk in 2017. Russia announced the completion of a rail bridge from Nizhneleninskoye, Russia, and Tongjiang, China -- the first of its kind between the two countries. File Photo by Maxim Shipenkov/EPA-EFE

March 21 (UPI) -- A rail bridge connecting Russia with China over the Amur River has been completed, Russian media reported Thursday.

The 7,218-foot

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Nizhneleninskoye, Russia and Tongjiang, China and is expected to move some 21 million tons of goods between the two countries when it officially opens later this year. Iron ore, coal, mineral fertilizers and lumber are

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that will be moved across the bridge.

"This means that the first railway bridge between the countries has been successfully connected," the Chinese Heilongjiang administration said, according to the RBC news website.

Construction crews started working on the final deck for the $300 million railroad bridge in February. Construction of the bridge had been going on since 2014, and China finished its half in October.

"After the railway bridge is put into operation, we can import all through the year, and this is also expected to reduce transportation costs by ($14.50) per cubic meter of timber," Xu Zhaojun, owner of a timber importer in Tongjiang,

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, the state-run Xinhua news agency said.

China became the largest trading partner and source of foreign investment for the Russian Far East region. Song Kui, president of the Contemporary China-Russia Regional Economy Research Institute in Heilongjiang, said the new bridge would further enhance economic cooperation between the two countries.

 

[antiterror13]

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Rise of China means growth of PH, neighbors: Locsin
By Joyce Ann L. Rocamora March 20, 2019, 8:41 pm

Foreign Affairs Secretary Teodoro Locsin Jr. at a joint press briefing with Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi in his first official visit to Beijing. (Photo courtesy of DFA-Office of Public Diplomacy/ Emilio Lopue)

MANILA-- Foreign Affairs Secretary Teodoro Locsin Jr. on Tuesday reaffirmed the Philippines support to China as the rising power in the East, saying the emergence of a "new China" creates a world where the developing nations have a chance.

Locsin said Manila has much to hope for, and nothing to fear from the rise of a new power. This, as it hoped for a "new world" where a state's goal to get richer is through helping others prosper.

Citing what he wrote in the Philippine-China memorandum of understanding on the Belt and Road Initiative, Locsin said there is no other country but the new China that aspired to rise higher by helping others rise alongside her.

"To put it in concrete terms, without the new China, there will be no prospect whatsoever for the developing world to grow into emerging economies. We would still be, as throughout the second half of the last century we were, at the mercy of Western markets which, on a whim, can turn us away—as they did throughout the post- and neo-colonial period," he said during a joint presser with State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Wednesday.

"The emergence of a new China is creating a world where the lesser have a chance. And more than a chance: cooperation for mutual benefit instead of words," he added.

On the two countries' cooperation, Locsin and Wang vowed to deepen Philippines-China relations.

Although a lot of work remains to be done, there are "greater advantages" in the two nations' collaboration across a wide range of areas, Locsin said.

"There is so much to look forward to and accomplish that will be of much greater value to both of us than those differences can ever be to each one," he noted.

Locsin also assured the Chinese official that Manila will look after the Chinese people in the Philippines.

"You have our assurance that the Philippines will look out for your people in my country as I have seen China look out for our people in yours," said Locsin, who is in Beijing for his first official visit to China.

Prior to his presser with Wang, he met with Vice President Wang Qishan, a stalwart of the Chinese Communist Party, who reaffirmed China’s commitment to further strengthening bilateral relations with Manila.

Also present during the meeting were Executive Secretary Salvador Medialdea and Philippine economic managers led by Finance Secretary Carlos Dominguez. (PNA)

Interesting how the relationship of nations can change dramatically in a short period of time. Under Ninoy, the relationship was so bad and so hostile to China ... even once he said China was like Nazi ..... and forced China to reclaim a few island in Spratly. China had no option, had to do it

China now leave Scarborough Shoal relatively undisturbed ... but I'd bet if the Philippine govt become hostile again in the future, in not time it would be reclaimed ... even bigger than existing islands China has reclaimed

 

[weig2000]

"To put it in concrete terms, without the new China, there will be no prospect whatsoever for the developing world to grow into emerging economies. We would still be, as throughout the second half of the last century we were, at the mercy of Western markets which, on a whim, can turn us away—as they did throughout the post- and neo-colonial period," he said during a joint presser with State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Wednesday.

"The emergence of a new China is creating a world where the lesser have a chance. And more than a chance: cooperation for mutual benefit instead of words," he added.

Wow. These sound very different from the debt-trapping, resource-extracting, environment-damaging, local-people-exploiting China that has been so often painted by the western media and governments.