TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
You can operate VTOL onunprepared surfaces . It simply becomes an issue if you do so repeatedly. Farther more the decks of conventional carriers already need that treatment.
China's V/STOL studies, concepts & considerations
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Again then you loose the independence of the carrier as the Landing forces depend on support from the air. If that carrier deck is needed elsewhere you can't free it up without weakening the forces supporting the expeditionary arm leaving them to support by helicopter with a shorter range and more easily defeated asset.
Not much more than a helicopter. The blast clears away most small debris on landing it's a bit dangerous for ground crew but that same risk is true for Medium to large helicopters and tiltrotors. The Chinese Blue Whale tilt rotor concept from a few years back had Osprey like nacelles those would produce the same type of heat effects seen from the F35B.
Tiltrotors are a form of VTOL aircraft.
I'm going to be a pendant here. The F-35B and the Harrier are VSTOL fighter rather than VTOL. Taking off vertically comes with a huge payload penalty and they operate almost always with in the STO - Short Take Off - regime, ditto for landing unless they have expended their ordnance.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
This is true but the short in this case is very short.same for tilt rotors the Osprey also favors very short.
July 2017 during MAKS-2017, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov announced that discussions were under way to create a new aircraft with vertical take-off and landing,
then in December 2017 Borisov himself confirmed that work is underway to design a new vertical take-off and landing aircraft (V/STOL).
then last month, on a Russian forum appeared this photo with a high probability made in the (JSC) "A.S.Yakovlev Design Bureau".
after a brief search I discovered that it is not very recent, but it has been
taken by the user nick name "ash" in May 2017
here same month in another image the same YAK-141 still "parked"
and in the company of other dusty aircraft, before being loaded onto the trailer
therefore the study of the V / STOL project starting from the last creation of Yakovlev had actually already begun before the announcement of July 2017, and it is likely that Minister Borisov made that declaration in December 2017 having already available something concrete.
The Chinese interest in V / STOL aircraft has been discussed from several sides, so this impulse given by the Russians to the design of a new and advanced V / STOL aircraft could be part of a Russian-Chinese agreement.
recently, China has participated in the recent international military technical forum "ARMY-2018" held in Russia, where it has also presented models of some naval units, including a 20,000 ton LHD, to the Russian military authorities
although if you want the Chinese can offer something better, at least as a project, see Type-075 from +/- 40,000 tons, which should cost a little more Blush, but it would be ideal for the Yakovlev V / STOL, fantasy V / STOL that the Chinese put on the bridge in this pictorial impression
so if they can establish a real collaboration, where Russia with Yakovlev puts a decade and experience in the design and construction of V / STOL aircraft with the YAK-38 and with the YAK-141 for the design of a new aircraft, and China will participates with its spending capacity, I think that in 5 years you could have in the prototype that flies ,.
To balance the agreement, given the exceptional construction capacity of the Chinese shipyards, Russia could sign a contract for at least 2 LHD of 20,000 tons, better for the 40,000 type-075B.
then in December 2017 Borisov himself confirmed that work is underway to design a new vertical take-off and landing aircraft (V/STOL).
then last month, on a Russian forum appeared this photo with a high probability made in the (JSC) "A.S.Yakovlev Design Bureau".
after a brief search I discovered that it is not very recent, but it has been
taken by the user nick name "ash" in May 2017
here same month in another image the same YAK-141 still "parked"
and in the company of other dusty aircraft, before being loaded onto the trailer
therefore the study of the V / STOL project starting from the last creation of Yakovlev had actually already begun before the announcement of July 2017, and it is likely that Minister Borisov made that declaration in December 2017 having already available something concrete.
The Chinese interest in V / STOL aircraft has been discussed from several sides, so this impulse given by the Russians to the design of a new and advanced V / STOL aircraft could be part of a Russian-Chinese agreement.
recently, China has participated in the recent international military technical forum "ARMY-2018" held in Russia, where it has also presented models of some naval units, including a 20,000 ton LHD, to the Russian military authorities
although if you want the Chinese can offer something better, at least as a project, see Type-075 from +/- 40,000 tons, which should cost a little more Blush, but it would be ideal for the Yakovlev V / STOL, fantasy V / STOL that the Chinese put on the bridge in this pictorial impression
so if they can establish a real collaboration, where Russia with Yakovlev puts a decade and experience in the design and construction of V / STOL aircraft with the YAK-38 and with the YAK-141 for the design of a new aircraft, and China will participates with its spending capacity, I think that in 5 years you could have in the prototype that flies ,.
To balance the agreement, given the exceptional construction capacity of the Chinese shipyards, Russia could sign a contract for at least 2 LHD of 20,000 tons, better for the 40,000 type-075B.
D
Deleted member 13312
Guest
I don't think you can compare a helicopter with a VTOL fighter. For one thing the amount of thrust that is produced and concentrated by what is basically a controlled rocket engine far outstrips that of a turbo shaft engine that is powering a propeller.
It is not impossible that there is some collaboration between Russia and China on that fighter. Chinese & Russian rumours of a VTOL jet came around at roughly the same time IIRC. Yakolev should be now in a lot better shape financially than they were back when the Yak-141 was cancelled in the 1990s. Since then Yakolev have had success with the Yak-130 trainer. Also there is the seemingly well progressing Irkut MC-21 commercial airplane, which has a lot of orders. This should give them the funds and expertise to try to expand into other areas. After Sukhoi, Yakolev is the 2nd best design bureau in present Russia in terms of successful modern aircraft.
That photograph you got of that warehouse might be showing this aircraft:
It supposedly has a nose air bleed system. But it still requires lift engines. Which were a big issue with previous VSTOL Yak designs and the cause of several accidents. The Harrier is less problematic in that regard, since it only has one engine, but still there were a lot of accidents. IIRC the Harrier was considered roughly as reliable as a helicopter. For those who know about these numbers that means like 3x the incidents/accidents of a conventional layout airplane. Perhaps that could be improved with fly-by-wire but it's still going to be problematic.
Yes, I think the Chinese tiltrotor is a lot more likely. It would facilitate inserting troops into Taiwan or moving troops over the long distances of China much more quickly than an helicopter. There is supposedly already a prototype. Also the engine technology, if it has the proper parameters, can be also used on a large transport helicopter or small turboprop airplane. Much of the knowledge for the engine and the other technology should be easier to access and import than for a military jet based VTOL. The technology will become available on the civilian market, for example, with the AgustaWestland AW609. This should facilitate any reverse engineering efforts.
That photograph you got of that warehouse might be showing this aircraft:
It supposedly has a nose air bleed system. But it still requires lift engines. Which were a big issue with previous VSTOL Yak designs and the cause of several accidents. The Harrier is less problematic in that regard, since it only has one engine, but still there were a lot of accidents. IIRC the Harrier was considered roughly as reliable as a helicopter. For those who know about these numbers that means like 3x the incidents/accidents of a conventional layout airplane. Perhaps that could be improved with fly-by-wire but it's still going to be problematic.
Yes, I think the Chinese tiltrotor is a lot more likely. It would facilitate inserting troops into Taiwan or moving troops over the long distances of China much more quickly than an helicopter. There is supposedly already a prototype. Also the engine technology, if it has the proper parameters, can be also used on a large transport helicopter or small turboprop airplane. Much of the knowledge for the engine and the other technology should be easier to access and import than for a military jet based VTOL. The technology will become available on the civilian market, for example, with the AgustaWestland AW609. This should facilitate any reverse engineering efforts.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
The Leonardo AW609 is based of the same technology as the V22 Osprey. It's not as easy as you make it seem.
As the tech involved Bell early on and the power plants at the core are P&W the US can step in and limit across.
Remember that the Russians, French, US and even Germany were working on Jet Vertical/Very Short Take Off and Landing types as far back as the 50s with Harrier acheaving production and service world wide well Tilt rotors have been plagued with issues for decades until the V22 Osprey finally achieved success. Even then the V22 program dates back decades with first flights almost 30 years ago. Even then it took another decade and a half to get to the point where they entered service.
Today's successful V22 are almost totally different aircraft from then but to get that was was a long hard road as hard as the ones the British took took for the Harrier.
The faulure of thr Russian Yak 41 is an example of a V/STOL program that's fell apart because of the nation behind it not the technology. It emerged when the USSR was in absolute fall same for the Kuznetsov class carrier. Had Russia been in a better position economically the program might have entered production.
I have seen people criticize the Chinese engines and need of lift engines The fact is
1 ) lift engines whether in the form of the Harriers direct lift or Convair/Yak/Mirage The Lift Jet system are comparable to the Chinese technology levels. Why? Because the jets that used these were built 40+ years ago. Remember that the lift jets used are smaller engines. The Pegasus engine in the Harrier is not a super sonic engine but a large engine. Heck even the basis for the F35B lift system had forerunners on the 50s,60s and 70s. Chinese engine development capacity should be able to at least match that if not surpass that.
2)as proven by the Mirage IIIV and VFW YAK you don't need massively powerful secondary engines to make a fighter land vertically. The Lift jets used only need to provide enough thrust to lift off the deck. Not break orbit and fly to Mars.
large medium lift and Heavy lift helicopters produce massive amounts of air current as they land. It and jets can match some rockets in force. Ch53E and V22 can produce Typhoon category winds on landing.
The aim is the same between the two types produce enough thrust to counter the weight of the aircraft and even better in the case of a V/STOL fighter you can still use the wings to generate lift to get up faster and with more payload.
The biggest innovation brought to V/STOL in the last decades is fly by wire. Fine and X32 as well as F35B prove that.
Especially since on the later we have yet to hear of a crash landing.
That control mechanism is the norm for a vertically landing jet. Lift fans are also a commonly tried systems. Yes they have been found wanting on reliability.
However it needs to be remembered that this is only one method of trying a fighter to fly like that.
July 2017 during MAKS-2017, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov announced that discussions were under way to create a new aircraft with vertical take-off and landing,
then in December 2017 Borisov himself confirmed that work is underway to design a new vertical take-off and landing aircraft (V/STOL).
then last month, on a Russian forum appeared this photo with a high probability made in the (JSC) "A.S.Yakovlev Design Bureau".
after a brief search I discovered that it is not very recent, but it has been
taken by the user nick name "ash" in May 2017
here same month in another image the same YAK-141 still "parked"
and in the company of other dusty aircraft, before being loaded onto the trailer
therefore the study of the V / STOL project starting from the last creation of Yakovlev had actually already begun before the announcement of July 2017, and it is likely that Minister Borisov made that declaration in December 2017 having already available something concrete.
The Chinese interest in V / STOL aircraft has been discussed from several sides, so this impulse given by the Russians to the design of a new and advanced V / STOL aircraft could be part of a Russian-Chinese agreement.
recently, China has participated in the recent international military technical forum "ARMY-2018" held in Russia, where it has also presented models of some naval units, including a 20,000 ton LHD, to the Russian military authorities
although if you want the Chinese can offer something better, at least as a project, see Type-075 from +/- 40,000 tons, which should cost a little more Blush, but it would be ideal for the Yakovlev V / STOL, fantasy V / STOL that the Chinese put on the bridge in this pictorial impression
so if they can establish a real collaboration, where Russia with Yakovlev puts a decade and experience in the design and construction of V / STOL aircraft with the YAK-38 and with the YAK-141 for the design of a new aircraft, and China will participates with its spending capacity, I think that in 5 years you could have in the prototype that flies ,.
To balance the agreement, given the exceptional construction capacity of the Chinese shipyards, Russia could sign a contract for at least 2 LHD of 20,000 tons, better for the 40,000 type-075B.
Image Very old and taken 2011 in Yakovlev facility