China's Greatest Fear: Dead and Buried Like the Soviet Union (Closed)

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Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Iron Man said:
Harmonious:
1) forming a pleasing or consistent whole.
2) free from disagreement or dissent.

Yes, China has never abducted and enslaved another country's people, crusaded against Muslims, and murdered millions of Native Americans and took their lands; the West has plenty of blood on its hands that it has never atoned for. But that is not relevant to whether China has had a "harmonious" history. In fact it has not. Its history has been marked by frequent periods of great violence and disunity. And inexorable expansion, from the Zhou heartland outwards to its current boundaries today, conquering and/or absorbing smaller peoples and nations along the way. I think a harmonious China is a myth, a nostalgic but fanciful redaction of actual Chinese history. Like any other great nation, its history is soaked red in tooth and claw.


It is not the ethnic minorities that give modern China its 'glue', it's the Han majority. And it's not the ethnic minorities that are settling in Xinjiang and Tibet, it's the Han majority. If modern China did not have a 91% Han majority, we may not be looking at the same country we are now. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this picture, just pointing out the facts.

QUOTE]

My point is the West are the hypocrisy by trying to play morality police in this world. It is the West that's still occupying Australia, North America, and New Zeland land that don't belong to them. China on the other hand has been an existing civilization for over thousands of years on the same piece of land.


Iron Man said:
It is not the ethnic minorities that give modern China its 'glue', it's the Han majority. And it's not the ethnic minorities that are settling in Xinjiang and Tibet, it's the Han majority. If modern China did not have a 91% Han majority, we may not be looking at the same country we are now. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this picture, just pointing out the facts.

QUOTE]

Wrong it is ALL of China ethnicities that made the PRC as it is today. And ALL of these Chinese ethnicities are a part of China. And all of them are living together in harmony, it's ONLY in the Western media eyes that they think that China "police state" are destroying and oppressing minorities. I don't see China are suffering from Black Lives matter and other minority problems that the elite rulers and corrupted government keeps on ignoring.
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I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Equation said:
My point is the West are the hypocrisy by trying to play morality police in this world. It is the West that's still occupying Australia, North America, and New Zeland land that don't belong to them. China on the other hand has been an existing civilization for over thousands of years on the same piece of land.
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You missed the point with your point, however. It has actually NOT been the "same piece of land", has it? Though China's conquests are not far and distant like that of the West's, they somehow got from the size of Zhou to the size of the PRC, which is somewhere between 5 to 8 times larger than Zhou. How did they do it? Asking nicely for someone else's land? Where did all those minorities in China come from? Conquered non-Han peoples, where else.

Equation said:
Wrong it is ALL of China ethnicities that made the PRC as it is today. And ALL of these Chinese ethnicities are a part of China. And all of them are living together in harmony, it's ONLY in the Western media eyes that they think that China "police state" are destroying and oppressing minorities. I don't see China are suffering from Black Lives matter and other minority problems that the elite rulers and corrupted government keeps on ignoring.
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Of course all of China's ethnicities "make the PRC as it is today". But once again you are missing the point. Ethnic strife is nearly non-existent because ethnic statistical diversity is nearly non-existent. But yet despite this Uyghurs and Tibetans already DO pose "minority problems" for China despite what you are claiming. You really think the majority of these people want to hug their Han 'brethren' and sing kumbaya with them around a campfire while roasting goat meat together? If they were a larger percentage of the Chinese population and also distributed throughout more of China itself you can bet there would be even more "minority problems" than there are now. The Chinese government knows this of course, and that is why it has been encouraging more and more Han migrants to go into Xinjiang and Tibet and settle there, and thereby create a demographic fait accompli within Xinjiang and Tibet. That's a long term generational game, but let's not kid ourselves that it's in fact being played and why it's being played.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Iron Man said:
You missed the point with your point, however. It has actually NOT been the "same piece of land", has it? Though China's conquests are not far and distant like that of the West's, they somehow got from the size of Zhou to the size of the PRC, which is somewhere between 5 to 8 times larger than Zhou. How did they do it? Asking nicely for someone else's land? Where did all those minorities in China come from? Conquered non-Han peoples, where else.

QUOTE]

They did it by being smart, discipline, and strong as a united group of people. They did it far better than the Europeans and that's what irking them. The China haters can't stand it that China as an ancient civilization still exist to this day. That's the bottom line of my argument. The Han ethnicity are not preventing any one from existing.

Iron Man said:
Of course all of China's ethnicities "make the PRC as it is today". But once again you are missing the point. Ethnic strife is nearly non-existent because ethnic statistical diversity is nearly non-existent. But yet despite this Uyghurs and Tibetans already DO pose "minority problems" for China despite what you are claiming. You really think the majority of these people want to hug their Han 'brethren' and sing kumbaya with them around a campfire while roasting goat meat together? If they were a larger percentage of the Chinese population and also distributed throughout more of China itself you can bet there would be even more "minority problems" than there are now. The Chinese government knows this of course, and that is why it has been encouraging more and more Han migrants to go into Xinjiang and Tibet and settle there, and thereby create a demographic fait accompli within Xinjiang and Tibet. That's a long term generational game, but let's not kid ourselves that it's in fact being played and why it's being played. QUOTE]

What ethnic strife? You mean the few that are causing trouble and terrorism? In which are supported by outside groups and NGOs? You make seems as if the Han are the enemy of the minorities therefore are not allowed to migrant where ever they are permitted in their own country? That's a typical Chinese separatist kind of thinking. Bring in specialist and business to the much needed development into those poorer are regions are an act of good governance that will benefit minorities as well. Remember it's the PRC that uprooted 800 million people out of poverty and hundreds of millions more into middle class status. That's far better than any government or god out there in human history.
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I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Equation said:
They did it by being smart, discipline, and strong as a united group of people. They did it far better than the Europeans and that's what irking them. The China haters can't stand it that China as an ancient civilization still exist to this day. That's the bottom line of my argument. The Han ethnicity are not preventing any one from existing.
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No, the Han ethnicity is not preventing anyone from existing, but it has assimilated other ethnicities before and is assimilating other ethnicities now, not always or perhaps even usually harmoniously, might I add (though resistance was usually futile). The Han ethnicity itself is a conglomeration of multiple ethnicities which had all been subsumed into one some time in the distant past. Just look at Northern and Southern Han people and you can tell there are noticeable differences on a statistical level.

Equation said:
What ethnic strife? You mean the few that are causing trouble and terrorism? In which are supported by outside groups and NGOs? You make seems as if the Han are the enemy of the minorities therefore are not allowed to migrant where ever they are permitted in their own country? That's a typical Chinese separatist kind of thinking. Bring in specialist and business to the much needed development into those poorer are regions are an act of good governance that will benefit minorities as well. Remember it's the PRC that uprooted 800 million people out of poverty and hundreds of millions more into middle class status. That's far better than any government or god out there in human history.
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That's a typical imperialist kind of thinking. Did you ever ask if the Tibetan or Uyghur people themselves prefer to be under Han rule, regardless of the economic benefits? How many of them think of themselves as "Chinese" rather than "Tibetan" or "Uyghur"? If they were allowed to hold a referendum today, how many would vote for secession, in your honest opinion?
 
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SanWenYu

Senior Member
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
If they were allowed to hold a referendum today, how many would vote for secession, in your honest opinion?
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IMO this kind of hypotheses are meaningless without circumstance.

If there would be no external aid after the secession and everyone knew it, there probably wouldn't be many.

If outside intervention was allowed, even the Han ethnic strong region could fall apart. It was a close call in 1920s.

It's not hard to buy over enough Joe Blows.
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
SanWenYu said:
IMO this kind of hypotheses are meaningless without circumstance.

If there would be no external aid after the secession and everyone knew it, there probably wouldn't be many.

If outside intervention was allowed, even the Han ethnic strong region could fall apart. It was a close call in 1920s.

It's not hard to buy over enough Joe Blows.
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Again, this is just another variation of the "I know what's best for you people so shut up and like it" attitude that characterizes many in China WRT Tibetans and Uyghurs.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
No, the Han ethnicity is not preventing anyone from existing, but it has assimilated other ethnicities before and is assimilating other ethnicities now, not always or perhaps even usually harmoniously, might I add (though resistance was usually futile). The Han ethnicity itself is a conglomeration of multiple ethnicities which had all been subsumed into one some time in the distant past. Just look at Northern and Southern Han people and you can tell there are noticeable differences on a statistical level.
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Assimilation is a part of human history and life itself. It's not the Han's fault that they have a much larger group of people. Ethnic intermarriages are a part of life. There's nothing wrong with that. Your typical kind of thinking is border line racist because you don't want a certain smaller group of people to become extinct or impure in some kind of way. Sorry to tell you that human beings will continue to progress and married whomever they want to have children with. The world does NOT owe you and or any particular group of ethnicity existence for purity sake.

That's a typical imperialist kind of thinking. Did you ever ask if the Tibetan or Uyghur people themselves prefer to be under Han rule, regardless of the economic benefits? How many of them think of themselves as "Chinese" rather than "Tibetan" or "Uyghur"? If they were allowed to hold a referendum today, how many would vote for secession, in your honest opinion?
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Have you ever been to China and ask these kind of NGO separatist question to any Uyghur or Tibetan people? No? I thought so. Your answer is a typical PRC hating kind, "do as I say, not what I do," mentality. China is NOT suppressing any of these groups of people, they're just tracking for any trouble maker or terrorist groups supported by outsiders like any responsible government should. You are losing hope therefore desperate to make any morality sense to justify for your deep inside prejudice against the Han ethnic for some reason.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Iron Man said:
No, the Han ethnicity is not preventing anyone from existing, but it has assimilated other ethnicities before and is assimilating other ethnicities now, not always or perhaps even usually harmoniously, might I add (though resistance was usually futile). The Han ethnicity itself is a conglomeration of multiple ethnicities which had all been subsumed into one some time in the distant past. Just look at Northern and Southern Han people and you can tell there are noticeable differences on a statistical level.

That's a typical imperialist kind of thinking. Did you ever ask if the Tibetan or Uyghur people themselves prefer to be under Han rule, regardless of the economic benefits? How many of them think of themselves as "Chinese" rather than "Tibetan" or "Uyghur"? If they were allowed to hold a referendum today, how many would vote for secession, in your honest opinion?
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First, the People's Republic of China was not founded on the rule of a particular ethnicity, therefore your premise of "Han rule" is completely invalid. The leadership of the PRC is the Communist Party of China, which is an organization based on ideology and not ethnicity.

Second, you forget that it was not the Han people who sculpted the territorial character of modern-day China. That is the work of the Manchu Qings, who willingly assimilated themselves into the Han culture, and brought their rule over the rest of the Qing Empire. The assimilation of the Manchu into Han culture is perhaps the closest example of a "harmonious assimilation" as we can get, unless you insist on using a fairytale definition of "harmony".

Third, the idea that certain ethnicities in China have an inherent right to certain Chinese territories is nonsense. It is an idea that originated from colonial powers to facilitate their conquests through divide-and-conquer. No particular ethnicity have a moral right to any territory in China. For example, both the Han and Tang dynasties had established settlements and commanderies in Xinjiang, while the Uighurs arrived from Mongolia in the 9th century. The history of China is one of migrations.

Finally, modern China is forged on the principle of nationalism. Nationalism means that all the territories that encompass the PRC belongs to ALL Chinese people. Any attempt to forment separatism, whatever the pretext (ethnicity, religion, democracy), will be resolutely opposed by both the government and the people of China.
 
N

nugroho

Junior Member
Iron Man said:
You missed the point with your point, however. It has actually NOT been the "same piece of land", has it? Though China's conquests are not far and distant like that of the West's, they somehow got from the size of Zhou to the size of the PRC, which is somewhere between 5 to 8 times larger than Zhou. How did they do it? Asking nicely for someone else's land? Where did all those minorities in China come from? Conquered non-Han peoples, where else.


Of course all of China's ethnicities "make the PRC as it is today". But once again you are missing the point. Ethnic strife is nearly non-existent because ethnic statistical diversity is nearly non-existent. But yet despite this Uyghurs and Tibetans already DO pose "minority problems" for China despite what you are claiming. You really think the majority of these people want to hug their Han 'brethren' and sing kumbaya with them around a campfire while roasting goat meat together? If they were a larger percentage of the Chinese population and also distributed throughout more of China itself you can bet there would be even more "minority problems" than there are now. The Chinese government knows this of course, and that is why it has been encouraging more and more Han migrants to go into Xinjiang and Tibet and settle there, and thereby create a demographic fait accompli within Xinjiang and Tibet. That's a long term generational game, but let's not kid ourselves that it's in fact being played and why it's being played.
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Han become mayority through intermarriage not kill another. If you knew haplogroup and mt RNA , you will know the Han " diversivity ".
 
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