China's Defense Spending Thread

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Countries generally spend as little as possible on the military because it does not generate any economic benefits for the country. Military is a cost centre in corporate speak. Civilians can't drive a tank to work nor fly to another city in a fighter plane. Military provides no service to civilians on their day-to-day lives. There is absolutely no need for China to spend as much money as Uncle Sam since she doesn't have an empire to maintain
Completly wrong, the military spending is consumption.
You want to say that the military spending is bad because it is not investment, but the 90% of the economy is consumption normal case.

In the chinese case the best part of the economy is investment, and they have to change that fast.
Chine doesn't need plants to make shoes , or cars ,or trucks -they have too many of those. They need consumers who destroy these items from disposable income / cosnumption loans.

Best/fastest way is to increase consmuption the military spending. The average Chinese hasn't got unlimited credit, to spend for consumption , but the goverment has, and the military spending generate demand for local workforce as well.

This was the strategy of Germany in the 30s.
They managed to mop up the masses of unemployed from the job market , and ignited wage inflation .
This pulled out the US from the great depression during the IIWW.
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Completly wrong, the military spending is consumption.
You want to say that the military spending is bad because it is not investment, but the 90% of the economy is consumption normal case.

In the chinese case the best part of the economy is investment, and they have to change that fast.
Chine doesn't need plants to make shoes , or cars ,or trucks -they have too many of those. They need consumers who destroy these items from disposable income / cosnumption loans.

Best/fastest way is to increase consmuption the military spending. The average Chinese hasn't got unlimited credit, to spend for consumption , but the goverment has, and the military spending generate demand for local workforce as well.

This was the strategy of Germany in the 30s.
They managed to mop up the masses of unemployed from the job market , and ignited wage inflation .
This pulled out the US from the great depression during the IIWW.
Suggested readig:
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Really can you explain it to me why Soviet Union implode when she spend 30-40% of government spending on defense ?
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Really can you explain it to me why Soviet Union implode when she spend 30-40% of government spending on defense ?
Wow, in one sentence at least three unsupported statement: D
The annoying is it takes way more time and space to reply than to make the statement ( your claim 20 words, check how much it takes to answer it).
1. the SU "implosion" was due to political reasons, not econmical ones
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Really can you explain it to me why Soviet Union implode when she spend 30-40% of government spending on defense ?
Wow, in one sentence at least three unsupported statement: D
The annoying is it takes way more time and space to reply than to make the statement ( your claim 20 words, check how much it takes to answer it).
1. the SU "implosion" was due to political reasons, not econmical ones.
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The ex eastern block countries recovered from the economical shock cauused by the policial changes only after 15-25 years - Poland just started the recovery recently.
2. How can you get from " For China the consumption increase is benefical in 2018" to the hypothesis of "For the CCCP the consumption increase was benefical in 1990" ?
The target of goverment spending is to mop up the unemployed masses, and give job and sallaries to them. As soon as the job market become tight, and the wage inflation takes off , like now in hungary.
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In the 30s in the US they started a lot of project without positive economical payback to mop up the unemployed masses. But it wasn't enought, the world war was the ultimate solution.
3. in the case of China the consumption is extremly low, it is unprecedent
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It looks extreme even if you compare it to Japan or US before the lost decade / great depression .
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China needs final consumption, the best should be household , but the most probable outcome will be the increase in military spending to mop up the unemployed masses, and save the face of the SOE managers / factory owners.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think people are jumping to the extremes a bit here.

Both sides are correct and have points of merit, as with almost all things in life, it’s abour striking the right balance rather than taking a fundamentalist view that A is all good and B is all bad.

I tend to think that in broad terms, military procurement spending is a lot like insurance. In good times, it can be a pain paying the bills thinking of all the other things you could do with that money, but when bad things happen, you are sure going to thank your lucky stars that you did buy that ‘insurance’ when you had the chance.

The last time China neglected its defence was in the later years of the Qing dynasty, when the Emperoress was more interested in building Palaces, and we all know what bitter fruits that decision yielded.

In economic terms, Military spending is exactly like consumption in that it generates demand and employment, which keep people employeed, so they can afford to spend on other things, and the whole multiplier effect kicks in to boost economic growth.

This could be seen most clearly in the shipbuilding industry. After the 2008 financial crash, the world shipping industry pretty much collapsed. Overnight, orders dried up.

It’s no coincidence that China’s current naval built up started soon after.

China was using military orders to offset some of that lost commercial work. That meant Chinese yards were able to keep their core of extremely highly trained (and so difficult and time consuming to regenerate) workers employed and continue investments in the shipyards to improve their technological base.

When commercial orders start picking up again, Chinese shipbuilding will be in far stronger position in absolute terms and relative to its competitors in South Korea and Japan.

Something else to seriously consider is the benefits military R&D yields for the broader economy.

For the 10th anniversary of the launch of the iPhone, there were a lot of articles written about the 10 key technologies that made the iPhone possible. Although it is not explicitly stated in any of the published articles I have read, in an interview with the BBC’s radio 4, one of the authors made a point I will never forget - every one of those 10 key technologies were developed either directly, or benefited fundamentally from government funded military R&D programmes.

I think it is no conincidence that American technological and economic world dominance peaked shortly after the end of the Cold War, and has been on a general, relative declining trend relative to the rest of the world, and China especially, ever since.

The biggest single direct contributing factor, in my view, is the contrasting amount of government funded R&D the US and China have invested in since.

While the US massively scaled back its own government funded military and civilian R&D programmes, China massively increased its own funding. Now, increasingly the big technological breakthroughs are coming out of China instead of America. Quantum computing and communications being a prime example. Even in fields where the West still lead in, China is closing fast in AI, autonomous driving cars, and a whole host of other cutting edge tech, with many insiders believing China will take the lead in a few years.

Government R&D is best at the big ticket break throughs as those takes vast investment over long years or decades with little to no immediate returns. Often such breakthroughs needs to combine multiple fields and technologies that are increasingly difficult for private enterprise to do with modern patent abuse.

Where private investment excels is at taking those big ticket breakthroughs to market to create products and services.

During the Cold War, that was the balance in America, with the government spending vast sums development the underlying technologies, and companies taking declassified tech and making new products with them. They made vast profits from the commercialisation of those products, which generated taxes to help fund more R&D.

America was able to turn that technological partnership and leverage it to gain economic dominance by being able to make things others simply could not. That is how middle income America was able to afford their comfortable lives of excess - because the rest of the world was willing to pay a huge premium for access the the latest high tech goods and services.

But with US government funding drying up after the Cold War, the source of all the new tech started to dry up also. Private investment tried to take over, but could never hope to offset all that lost government investment funding.

So more and more, American products lost their technological edge, yet was still trying to change the same kind of premiums as before, which is a key reason for the massive decline in American manufacturing - the rest of the world was not willing to keep paying such a high premium for things they can make themselves or could buy from other sources at lower cost.

A living embodiment for this trend would be Apple. It’s products used to be revolutionary, but now, increasingly, they just feels like endless rehashing of the same things with only incremental improvements. It is still the best, but is fast loosing its edge.

Outsourcing was also a key factor, but was a result of the declining US technological edge, where companies tied to offset the reduced premiums with lower costs. It would not have gutted American manufacturing had American technological advancement not slowed down so much at the same time. Had American technological advancement not slowed down, by the time the rest of the world absorbed the tech in its outsourced manufacturing, they would have moved onto the next gen of tech. And so the cycle could repeat without significantly eroding US technological dominance.

The key, as with all things, is moderation. Beyond a certain point, excessive military spending, be it R&D or hardware procurement, becomes a drag on the economy if it starts eating up resources that would be far better spent on other areas. This is where the USSR fell down hard, and increasingly, America is headed in the same direction.

For China, it’s traditional investment channels are already saturated. Much more investments in those areas will only lead to bubbles and busts.

One Belt One Road is a way to open up new markets for investment, but military spending, in both R&D and procurement, is also another.

Chinese military spending as a percentage of GDP is still very low, so there is plenty of room for growth without any real negative effects on the economy.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
The above comment is generally wrong. I won't go through everything, just a few examples.
I think it is no conincidence that American technological and economic world dominance peaked shortly after the end of the Cold War, and has been on a general, relative declining trend relative to the rest of the world, and China especially, ever since.

The biggest single direct contributing factor, in my view, is the contrasting amount of government funded R&D the US and China have invested in since.

While the US massively scaled back its own government funded military and civilian R&D programmes, China massively increased its own funding. Now, increasingly the big technological breakthroughs are coming out of China instead of America. Quantum computing and communications being a prime example. Even in fields where the West still lead in, China is closing fast in AI, autonomous driving cars, and a whole host of other cutting edge tech, with many insiders believing China will take the lead in a few years.
First you correctly describe American decline, such as it is, as
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, but then say that they "massively scaled back" R&D spending. While I don't have data for military or government R&D spending, there is little reason to think there was a decline
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
by related
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.
During the Cold War, that was the balance in America, with the government spending vast sums development the underlying technologies, and companies taking declassified tech and making new products with them. They made vast profits from the commercialisation of those products, which generated taxes to help fund more R&D.

America was able to turn that technological partnership and leverage it to gain economic dominance by being able to make things others simply could not. That is how middle income America was able to afford their comfortable lives of excess - because the rest of the world was willing to pay a huge premium for access the the latest high tech goods and services.
There were many
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developed countries during the Cold War, so this is not a deciding factor in how they were "able to afford their comfortable lives of excess."
But with US government funding drying up after the Cold War, the source of all the new tech started to dry up also. Private investment tried to take over, but could never hope to offset all that lost government investment funding.

So more and more, American products lost their technological edge, yet was still trying to change the same kind of premiums as before, which is a key reason for the massive decline in American manufacturing - the rest of the world was not willing to keep paying such a high premium for things they can make themselves or could buy from other sources at lower cost.

A living embodiment for this trend would be Apple. It’s products used to be revolutionary, but now, increasingly, they just feels like endless rehashing of the same things with only incremental improvements. It is still the best, but is fast loosing its edge.

Outsourcing was also a key factor, but was a result of the declining US technological edge, where companies tied to offset the reduced premiums with lower costs. It would not have gutted American manufacturing had American technological advancement not slowed down so much at the same time. Had American technological advancement not slowed down, by the time the rest of the world absorbed the tech in its outsourced manufacturing, they would have moved onto the next gen of tech. And so the cycle could repeat without significantly eroding US technological dominance.
This decline in American manufacturing is greatly overstated. American companies are still present in the most complex and profitable fields (aerospace, cars, consumer electronics, etc.) and the reason jobs moved to poorer countries was simply to make more money, independent of technological edge. They still have among the
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GDP per capita. See this
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(pages 23 to 28) for some perspective on corporate R&D spending.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
To be honest, I think it was more a stroke of coincidence that China's navy buildup began shortly after the 2008 crash. Now while China's defense spending will likely remain at 2% GDP for the foreseeable future, it's absolute number is still only going to go upwards. This is because China's economy as impressive as it is already has still a way to go. I don't expect to see any significant slowdown until China's GDP per capita hits 15000 USD, which at that point China would have already surpass the US as the world's largest economy.

Though of course alot of things can happen down the line.

Military spending does have some impact on the civilian side of the economy, though its not much. Military R&D is pretty much the only sector where investors can expect to make continuous losses until something worthwhile turns up, and they still won't mind. Military spending also keeps industries like ship building and vehicle production humming when times are hard. But these are only temporary solutions, not permanent ones.

And what was said about WW2 was true, the war effort pulled both the US and Russia out of economic depression. And the same was also true about the Cold War, the differences here is the protraction of time and the intensity of the conflict.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The above comment is generally wrong. I won't go through everything, just a few examples.

First you correctly describe American decline, such as it is, as
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, but then say that they "massively scaled back" R&D spending. While I don't have data for military or government R&D spending, there is little reason to think there was a decline
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
by related
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.

You yourself acknowledges that your indicators are nothing to do with military and government R&D, but my entire point was about government and military R&D!

Much of the US military-civilian collaboration R& efforts were done through NASA, so NASA funding would be a rough barometer for general US military R&D, since that data is highly classified.

There were many
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developed countries during the Cold War, so this is not a deciding factor in how they were "able to afford their comfortable lives of excess."

None of the other develop western nations were about to afford the ‘American dream’ lifestyle were they? That lifestyle was a massive draw for talented people from all over the world, including Europeans. Surely you don’t wholeheartedly buy into that ‘they are coming for our freedom’ fairtail? People overwhelmingly wanted to go to America because America promised them far more riches than they could earn back in their own countries.

Also, during the Cold War, US and other western developed countries did a lot of joint R&D, it was part of the quid pro quo of accepting American mastery that other developed western countries got a piece of the pie.

America always kept the best for themselves, but was still willing to give generous subsidised R&D fruits to friends and allies, all in the name of combating the ‘evil red commies’ (tm). Indeed, the development of the likes of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan were all massively subsidised by American money, technology and preferential market access to the US. Same thing with Europe and the Marshall Plan.

This decline in American manufacturing is greatly overstated. American companies are still present in the most complex and profitable fields (aerospace, cars, consumer electronics, etc.) and the reason jobs moved to poorer countries was simply to make more money, independent of technological edge. They still have among the
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GDP per capita. See this
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(pages 23 to 28) for some perspective on corporate R&D spending.

American manufacturing. How many of those top American companies still manufacture in the US?

When you look at the endless copycat crying lawsuits between the likes of Apple and Samsung and the endless re-invention of the wheel to avoid such lawsuits and corner more profits, I am also dubious of just how cost effective private R&D is.

That’s the whole problem with private R&D - there is massive duplication of effort, a lack of clear long term goals (companies and their directors care about the current and next quarterly profits, not something that will yield fruits 5-10 years down the line when they have probably cashed out their golden parachutes and moved on to the next gig); and lack of cross industry, never mind multi-industry co-ordination. That is why western R&D results and technological advancement is now increasingly incremental instead of revolutionary.

But by far the biggest issue with private R&D is that it is private. The fruits of those R&D projects are squirrelled away by the companies that funded them, and companies are very good at eliminating positive externalities and instead monitising all benefits of their works.

Just look at the enormous patent libraries the likes of Apple maintain. They don’t use all those patents, not even a fraction probably. But if anyone else tries to use similar technology, you can bet they will sue. Far from promoting advancement, increasingly, private corporate R&D and the US patent system specifically, is having a stifling effect on innovation.

The Apple iPhone and other smartphones were possible because the underlying key technologies that were government funded were available to them to use at a reasonable or even no cost. That boosts competition and promotions efficiency by allowing the best teams to win, instead of just the first ones to file a patent to corner the entire technology.

Also, looking at per capital GDP and corporate profits are missing the point when you consider the broader economic contexts of historically high concerntration of wealth in the hands of the top few percent of the population and worsening Gini coefficients.

That is all a result of companies and individuals being able to own technology that used to be publically available. And such concentrations of wealth creates all sorts of economic, social and political ills, but I fear we are already drifting way off point, so will refrain from going into those.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
You yourself acknowledges that your indicators are nothing to do with military and government R&D, but my entire point was about government and military R&D!

Much of the US military-civilian collaboration R&D efforts were done through NASA, so NASA funding would be a rough barometer for general US military R&D, since that data is highly classified.
What I linked was data on the American military budget and general R&D spending intensity. These things are clearly closely related to government/military R&D spending and have only increased. Military R&D spending is generally not secret (about 70 billion USD per year from the same Wikipedia article plus more in "black" programs), I just didn't feel like going through more sources for a temporal picture.
As for NASA, clearly there's been significant privatization of what were once its domains (SpaceX).
None of the other develop western nations were about to afford the ‘American dream’ lifestyle were they? That lifestyle was a massive draw for talented people from all over the world, including Europeans. Surely you don’t wholeheartedly buy into that ‘they are coming for our freedom’ fairtail? People overwhelmingly wanted to go to America because America promised them far more riches than they could earn back in their own countries.
Of course I don't believe the "freedom" part, but neither do I think the phrase "American dream" meant that the US had a higher standard of living than countries with a comparable GDP per capita. Here's some
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about immigration for the last 30 years (sort the right column). The top 9 countries are all presently under 10 thousand USD per capita. There are obviously also other reasons to immigrate, especially for the cognitive elite.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I accidentally posted the reply halfway through. Here's the other part.
Also, during the Cold War, US and other western developed countries did a lot of joint R&D, it was part of the quid pro quo of accepting American mastery that other developed western countries got a piece of the pie.

America always kept the best for themselves, but was still willing to give generous subsidised R&D fruits to friends and allies, all in the name of combating the ‘evil red commies’ (tm). Indeed, the development of the likes of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan were all massively subsidised by American money, technology and preferential market access to the US. Same thing with Europe and the Marshall Plan.
Simply put, military R&D, whether it's domestic or American, is not an important factor in whether a country is developed or not. For example, how much military R&D was done in, for example, Austria, Denmark, Ireland, Hong Kong or Singapore? On the other hand, why is Ukraine, with a strong military industry, among the poorest countries in Europe?
American manufacturing. How many of those top American companies still manufacture in the US?
Does it matter? They still do the R&D, keep the know-how, stay on the cutting edge and keep the profits.
When you look at the endless copycat crying lawsuits between the likes of Apple and Samsung and the endless re-invention of the wheel to avoid such lawsuits and corner more profits, I am also dubious of just how cost effective private R&D is.

That’s the whole problem with private R&D - there is massive duplication of effort, a lack of clear long term goals (companies and their directors care about the current and next quarterly profits, not something that will yield fruits 5-10 years down the line when they have probably cashed out their golden parachutes and moved on to the next gig); and lack of cross industry, never mind multi-industry co-ordination. That is why western R&D results and technological advancement is now increasingly incremental instead of revolutionary.

But by far the biggest issue with private R&D is that it is private. The fruits of those R&D projects are squirrelled away by the companies that funded them, and companies are very good at eliminating positive externalities and instead monitising all benefits of their works.

Just look at the enormous patent libraries the likes of Apple maintain. They don’t use all those patents, not even a fraction probably. But if anyone else tries to use similar technology, you can bet they will sue. Far from promoting advancement, increasingly, private corporate R&D and the US patent system specifically, is having a stifling effect on innovation.

The Apple iPhone and other smartphones were possible because the underlying key technologies that were government funded were available to them to use at a reasonable or even no cost. That boosts competition and promotions efficiency by allowing the best teams to win, instead of just the first ones to file a patent to corner the entire technology.

Also, looking at per capital GDP and corporate profits are missing the point when you consider the broader economic contexts of historically high concerntration of wealth in the hands of the top few percent of the population and worsening Gini coefficients.

That is all a result of companies and individuals being able to own technology that used to be publically available. And such concentrations of wealth creates all sorts of economic, social and political ills, but I fear we are already drifting way off point, so will refrain from going into those.
Like I said, looking at it, they seem to be doing well enough. Rumors of their demise etc. Apple is the largest company in the world by
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.
 
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