China's Defense Spending Thread

Discussion in 'Strategic Defense' started by antiterror13, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. antiterror13
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    antiterror13 Senior Member

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    This thread is being modified to be aimed at the PRC's Military/Defense spending.

    For comparative purposes, charts comparing GDP and Spending can be posted...but only for comparison. Keep the detailed discussion focused on China's Defense Spending.

    Other nation's defense spending details can be discussed in their own Military News Threads.

    Carry on.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, China' defence spending is now 808.23 billion yuan or with the current exchange US$131.36 billion. Obviously much less than the US, but the next after China is Russia ~US$60B.

    note that in China much of defence related cost are not part of the official defence budget (pension, R&D, foreign weapon purchases, etc) .... with apple to apple comparison, the budget would be over $200B

    Also cost in China is much lower than in the US, especially wages and living cost


    China Boosts Defense Spending 12% as Xi Strengthens Military - Bloomberg


    By Bloomberg News Mar 5, 2014 7:27 PM GMT+1300 61 Comments Email Print

    China's President Xi Jinping has made a strong military a key plank of his plan for a... Read More
    China’s central government will boost defense spending 12.2 percent this year as President Xi Jinping seeks to create a strong military and the navy extends its reach into neighboring waters.

    The defense budget is set to rise to 808.23 billion yuan ($131.6 billion), the Ministry of Finance said in a report today. The percentage increase is greater than that of total government expenditure, which will rise 9.5 percent in 2014, according to the report.

    Premier Li Keqiang told the opening session of the National People’s Congress in Beijing today that China will continue to enhance border, coastal and air defenses.

    “We will comprehensively enhance the revolutionary nature of the Chinese armed forces, further modernize them and upgrade their performance, and continue to raise their deterrence and combat capabilities in the information age,” Li said. China will boost research on national defense and the development of new and high technology weapons, he said.

    China’s military modernization is increasing tension in the region as it challenges the guarantee of security provided by the U.S. for more than a half a century to sea lanes that handle the bulk of world trade. Xi has made a strong military a key priority for a revitalized China and said he wants the nation to be a maritime power.

    ‘Great Power’

    China has also taken an increasingly assertive stance on territorial disputes that have lingered for decades with its neighbors. In November, China declared an air defense identification zone over a swathe of the East China Sea that includes islands disputed with Japan.

    “Since China’s defense spending is growing more quickly than any other country in the region, it always intensifies concerns about China’s intentions as a great power,” said Taylor Fravel, a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology who studies China’s ties with its neighbors. “The presence of active disputes in the maritime domain plus the increasing pace of Chinese naval exercises in the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean further intensifies this concern.”

    Defense spending from the central government budget -- which makes up almost all of China’s military outlay -- rose 10.7 percent to 720 billion yuan in 2013, the report said. China has the second-biggest military budget in the world after the U.S., though its outlay is still at least five times less.

    Chinese ‘Self-Defense’

    A rising budget doesn’t change the nation’s path toward peaceful development, NPC spokeswoman Fu Ying said yesterday. China needs power to ensure peace, and a few neighboring countries are promoting the “China threat” concept, she said.

    “China’s military budget has already been increasing by an average of more than 10 percent annually for many years,” said Denny Roy, a senior fellow at the Honolulu-based East-West Center whose work focuses on Chinese security issues. “In China’s view, the Chinese military is still not large or powerful enough to meet the needs of what the Chinese would call self-defense.”

    That includes the capability to overturn any move by Taiwan toward independence or to enforce China’s claims in the South China Sea, he said.

    China contests almost all of the South China Sea, based on historical usage and a nine-dash line that extends hundreds of miles south from Hainan Island, where China has a naval base, to the equatorial waters off the coast of Borneo.

    Maritime Escalation

    China’s neighbors have not sought to match its pace of defense spending, though they are shifting the composition of their forces and procurement toward such items as submarines, Fravel said.

    In an escalation of tensions with the Philippines, Chinese ships used water cannons in January to drive Filipino fishermen away from a disputed shoal in the South China Sea, the Philippine military said Feb. 24.

    While the U.S. says it does not take sides on territorial disputes it has not supported China’s claims under the nine-dash line. The U.S. ambassador to the Philippines Philip Goldberg said last month that “there is no such thing” as the nine-dash line, at a forum in Manila.

    In a reference to growing tensions with Japan, Premier Li told legislators China “will safeguard the victory of World War II and the postwar international order, and will not allow anyone to reverse the course of history.”

    Japan will push for more transparency in China’s defense policy and there’s no possibility of the country reversing history, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told reporters at a briefing in Tokyo today.

    China’s firmness on territorial matters will stop short of war, said Jian Zhang, a senior lecturer at the University of New South Wales in Canberra who specializes in China security issues. China’s priority is still to make sure the external environment is stable, he said.

    ‘Deterrence Capability’

    “I don’t think that China has any intention or think that it’s realistic to win the arms race with the U.S.,” he said. “China’s intention is to develop very credible, decent deterrence capability which can in the case of any military conflict deter U.S intervention. That’s what they are hoping for.”

    The central government’s budget for domestic security will increase 2.9 percent to 193.4 billion yuan in 2014. No figure was given for China’s total spending on internal security, which in previous years was provided in a table at the back of the budget report. China’s security spending has been higher than that on national defense since at least 2010.

    Some analysts say China’s actual defense spending is much higher than the announced figure. It reached $240 billion last year, about twice the officially declared budget, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency said last month.

    U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel last month proposed a Pentagon budget for the fiscal 2015 year of $496 billion. That would reduce the Army’s forces by 6 percent to fewer than before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The proposed budget would provide $154 billion for weapons purchases and research, $25 billion less than projected a year ago, according to the Defense Department.

    The contrasting direction of the budgets prompted a top American procurement official to warn that U.S. military superiority is threatened.

    “We’ve relied on technological superiority for decades now as one of the fundamental things that sets our military apart and I do see that that’s not assured given the investments being made by China as well as by other powers,” Frank Kendall, under secretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, told reporters in Singapore Feb. 11.

    To contact Bloomberg News staff for this story: Henry Sanderson in Beijing at hsanderson@bloomberg.net

    To contact the editor responsible for this story: Rosalind Mathieson at rmathieson3@bloomberg.net
     
    #1 antiterror13, Mar 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2015
  2. A.Man
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    A.Man Senior Member

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    Very Interesting Figures Over The Time

    GDP
    Central Government Revenue (RMB: x100,000,000 yuan)
    Military Spending(RMB: x100,000,000 yuan)
    Military Spending(RMB: x100,000,000 yuan)
    Military Spending Military Spending Percentage of Revenue
    Military Spending Percentage of GDP

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #2 A.Man, Mar 8, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  3. antiterror13
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    antiterror13 Senior Member

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    I don't think 1.26% is correct .... I tend to believe somewhere between 2 to 2.5% ... so the actual Chinese military close to spending is close to ~200B

    btw do you know that China Internal security budget is larger than PLA budget?

    this is the data and article in 2011

    China internal security spending jumps past army budget | Reuters

    I think in the US also similar ... if you add up all the spending of police, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc, etc would be larger than its defence spending
     
  4. A.Man
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    A.Man Senior Member

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    Internal security includes: Central & local government police, PAP (People's Armed Police)-all firefigher departments included in PAP, airport securities, and so on
     
  5. bluewater2012
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    bluewater2012 New Member

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    thanks for the link! reading peoples comments there is hilarious, seriously! :)
     
  6. Red Moon
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    Red Moon Junior Member

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    Do you know what Russia includes, or doesn't include in her defense budget? I don't. Without that, I can't compare Russia and China, aside from the observation that both seem to be making up for lost time.

    As to the US, it is known, for example, that nukes are under the Department of Energy. Meanwhile the Sea Lift Command is considered "civilian", as are the "Invincible" and similar spy ships, for example. And ironically, wars, (Iraq, Afghanistan) are also "off budget".

    So "apple to apple" comparison is out of the question. You are comparing apples to pears to bananas.

    As to A.Man's graphs and figures, they are interesting because they compare China to China, which I hope is a valid comparison. Interestingly, through the 90's it seems that the military budget remained steady as a percentage of expenditures, though it shrank as a percentage of GDP. Since then, it seems relatively flat as a percentage of GDP, but has shrunk as a percentage of expenditures... until this year by a small margin. And of course, the article is quick to point this out :).
     
    B.I.B. likes this.
  7. luhai
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    luhai Banned Idiot

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    nice, just the data I refered to in my other post. Despite all the transformation of Chinese military, it just does not compare to the transformation that occurred in the rest of China.

    If it's 200B per year, PLA forces wouldn't have all those obsolete equipment around. The current defense budget sounds about right given the progress we have seen in recent years and cost of Chinese weaponry.

    As for security budgets, at central government level, it's much lower. If you combine all local public safety budgets together, it's higher. However, that's true almost anywhere.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/special/2014-03/05/c_133162370.htm
     
  8. ahho
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    ahho Junior Member

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    Too bad it doesn't quite state the serviceman's wages. Really wonder how much they get paid and what benefit (health and other social services), if any, they get.
     
  9. Lethe
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    Lethe Junior Member

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    If military spending as proportion of GDP remains flat, but as proportion of government spending is decreasing, that implies total government spending as proportion of GDP is growing, which in turn implies either increasing proportion of GDP collected as revenue, or increasing levels of deficit financing, or both.
     
  10. antiterror13
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    antiterror13 Senior Member

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    Japan reveals record defence budget as tensions with China grow

    Interesting, in term of Japanese Yen, it indeed increases, but because Yen is much lower value compared to USD now than last year, in fact in USD, the Japanese defence spending actually significantly lower. This is important as most Japanese weapons are imported, so would need USD

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rd-defence-budget-as-tensions-with-china-grow

    At US$42bn the budget is another yearly increase but it is still dwarfed by both China and the US

    Justin McCurry in Tokyo
    theguardian.com, Wednesday 14 January 2015 06.03 GMT

    Japan has announced its biggest ever defence budget in response to China’s increasing military influence in the region and Beijing’s claims to a group of disputed islands administered by Tokyo.

    The 4.98 trillion yen (US$ 42bn) budget approved by the cabinet on Wednesday is up 2% from last year and marks the third straight increase after more than a decade of cuts.

    The rise is in line with Japan’s more assertive defence policy under the conservative prime minister, Shinzo Abe, as he seeks to counter Chinese influence and remove the postwar legal shackles from his country’s military.

    This year Abe is expected to push for legislation to reinterpret Japan’s constitution to allow Japanese troops to fight alongside allies on foreign soil for the first time since the end of the second world war. The move has been welcomed in Washington, which wants Japan to play a bigger role in the bilateral security alliance.

    At US$112.2bn, China’s defence budget dwarfs that of Japan. China is second only to the US, which spent US$600.4bn on defence in 2013, while Japan ranked seventh, according to the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London.

    Much of the military hardware included in Japan’s new budget is designed to monitor outlying territories and repel any attempt to invade island chains in the East China Sea.

    It includes money for 20 P-1 maritime surveillance aircraft, six F-35 fighters, five Osprey planes that double as helicopters, Global Hawk drones, two Aegis radar-equipped destroyers and a missile defence system to be jointly developed with the US.

    The defence ministry also plans to buy 30 amphibious assault vehicles and an early-warning aircraft that will patrol islands in southern Japan.

    The defence minister, Gen Nakatani, said extra defence spending was a response to the “changing situation” in the region – a clear reference to repeated incursions by Chinese surveillance ships in waters near the Senkakus.

    “The level of defence spending reflects the amount necessary to protect Japan’s air, sea and land, and guard the lives and property of our citizens,” Nakatani said, adding that Chinese planes had flown “abnormally close” to Japanese aircraft.

    “The real question is whether increased defence spending is the most effective way to respond to the rise of China,” which boosted military spending by 12 percent last year, said Koichi Nakano, a politics professor at Sophia University in Tokyo.

    “Japan is an ageing, mature economy with already huge public debt. China’s GDP is double that of Japan’s, and its population is 10 times bigger, Nakano said.

    “Beefing up military deterrence is going to be only part of the solution. Diplomatic efforts to lower tensions are at least as important, if not more so. Quite simply, Japan cannot afford to get into an arms race with China.”

    With an eye clearly on the risk of an invasion of one of its outlying islands, including the Senkaku chain, Japan has been developing its own version of the US marine corps, as well as acquiring more amphibious assault vehicles.

    But some analysts say Abe’s defensive plans are not just in response to China’s increasingly assertive behaviour in the East China sea.

    Tokyo is also concerned about North Korea’s nuclear weapons programme, protecting sea lanes and shifting its priorities from the Cold War focus on its northernmost region to maritime threats further south, said Jun Okumura, a visiting scholar at the Meiji Institute for Global Affairs in Tokyo.

    “That said, China’s increasingly assertive behaviour in the East China Sea and air space, plus, of course, its overtly hostile actions against the Philippines and Vietnam certainly have a major influence on the direction of Japan’s military spending, the thrust of its military doctrine and its approach to security alliances,” Okumura said.

    Tensions between Japan and China would continue as long as Beijing refuses to observe international law, said Tetsuo Kotani, a senior fellow at the Japan Institute of International Affairs.

    “China does not acknowledge freedom of navigation and overflight for foreign militaries, while at the same time it is threatening other countries’ territorial waters and airspace,” Kotani said. “Unless China respects international law and rules, these crises will continue.”
     
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