Chinas best dynastic military?

Crobato is right,you don't understand Ming dynasty.
Han Dynasty had to present many princess and grifts to Xiongnu people(匈奴人). Tang Dynasty had to present Princess Wencheng to Tibet.
Ming Dynasty sent "0." Rather, it's neighbours had to present gifts to the Ming Dynasty.
Ming's military strength, to the late Ming Dynasty still strong, a total of 2 million troops,still world most power. this time, the Japanese aggression against Korea, the Ming Dynasty sent troops defeated the Japanese.
but Qing dynasty ....
Although the rule of the Ming Dynasty political darkness, but it has a special military systems, and its strong strength in the military, how would you imagine the Song Dynasty and Ming Dynasty the same? This is a mistake.

Mongols and Manchus
1. True, the mongols were defeated by the viets, but the viets paid tribute in the end, the mongols also destroyed hanoi 2x and destroyed
the vietnamese army 2x in the field, Tran Thui mobilized the peasants
and remnants of his army to ambush the mongols on their way back to china.
However, you miss one big point, the mongols did much more damage to
vietnam than vice versa, this is the reason why tran thui decided to
continue the tributary relationship with Khubilai, there was a good
film about this which was shown in Vietnam in 1994, I saw it in Haiphong
, but I could not find the tape or dvd.The mongols lost the battles but won the war. Emperor Tran knew very well in his wisdom that he does not
need a rogue elephant or dragon as his neighbor. This is the very reason
why Vietnam and China coexist today in this type of relationship.
2. True, the Mongol fleet was destroyed off Hakata bay in Japan, but not
by Jap samurais, but by the big typhoon. If it werent for the typhoon
Japan would have been conquered by Khubilai.
3. The topic of this discussion is military aspect of dynasties, name me
a Han based dynasty that conquered the middle east, russia and eastern
europe - ?
4. The mongol dynasty was short lived, but like the german Me262 with
it's axial turbine engine , which was shortlived too towards the end of
WWII,( a lasting legacy for post WWII aeronautics), the Yuan created a lasting legacy for the chinese nation . That is, if
you consider china to me a multicultural and diversified nation, not just
Han centric. Khubilai, did one thing significant, he brought ALL the chinese peoples together under a central govt in Beijing, which is still
the case today. Therefore, the author John Man in his book on Khubilai,
clearly and explicitly mentioned that the Yuan set the foundations for
China as a superpower today.
5. The Qing, was another legacy of the Yuan, it learned one lesson, not
to focus too much on wars of expansion, but to consolidate the integration . They succeeded here, but their failure was they became complacent and got the wrong picture of the new scientific revolutions
occuring in the west, a Qing ambassador went to St. Petersburg and Constantinople, he came back saying that the Ottoman empire was much more
advanced than the west, therefore, China was not aware of the discoveries
of Sir Isaac Newton, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Pierre Simon de Laplace,
Michael Faraday, Georg Ohm, James Clerk Maxwell, etc.. But the important
thing the Qing did was it held on to it's territory for quite some time.
r's
clive

I started and you have the same views, but I would like to access information, Genghis Khan established Mongolia nation,not Yuan dynasty, he himself does not recognize Chinese, he occupied the Eurasian continent, divided into many countries, gave to his sons, he died at the journey. after his death, his sons are corrupt rule integration, and the mutual struggle.
There is a grandson of Genghis Khan, named Kublai Khan, he likes Chinese culture, he became the leader of the Mongolia, and he established the Yuan dynasty, the Yuan dynasty eliminated the Southern Song dynasty, after his death, the Yuan dynasty quickly perished. Yuan Dynasty is the eradication of the Ming Dynasty , the Mongols people become China's ethnic minorities.
Mongolia nation does not mean that the Yuan dynasty, and they should not be mixed, and historians around the world, no one said that the Chinese people have occupied the Eurasian continent.
Mongolians know how to horseback riding, but they study the Chinese people to fight, they are nomads, they can't manufacture weapons, especially archers, only the Chinese people will create.
China Great Wall northern region is desolate and uninhabited desert and steppe, the Chinese do not like living there, the Ming dynasty Government does not want to rule out those places.
Mongolians south looting often took the opportunity, when the Ming Dynasty army counterattack them, they fled back to desert.

^ No Chinese dynasty ever took territory in the Middle East Russia and Eastern Europe. The boundaries of Yuan don't stretch that far.

Remember that Genghis Khan has little link to China. Kublai Khan was the "Mongol Chinese" Emperor, and he had nothing to do with exploits of the other parts of the Mongol Empire in Middle East Russia and Eastern Europe.

I also find it ironic that you talk about the Vietnamese paying tribute. Actually, the northern nomadic people (including Mongols and others) paid tribute to the Han Chinese for thousands of years. So who is greater? Throughout history, the Han Chinese had the upper hand over the northern nomads for 95% of the time.

Some simple facts:
1. There was no so called "china" in Genghis Khan's times.
there was Jin, Song, Xixia, Karakhitai, Dali , etc..
2. Genghis Khan's first principal adviser, Tatatongga, gave the first
cue about unifying both the steppe and plains.
3. Genghis Khan's 2nd principal adviser and Ogodei's prime minister
Yeliu Chucai mentioned about the great dream of bringing steppe and
plain together into one great empire. He also persuaded Ogodei
to build the new Mongol capitol at Kharakhorin. Recent excavations by
German archeologists, show Kharakhorin to be much like a miniature
Beijing.There is also an inscription in Han characters mentioning the
laying of the foundation of the city.
3. The govt formed by Yeliu is composed of Qidan , Jurchen and Han
literatii. Later Muslims were also incorporated.
4. Khubilai effected Genghis' and Yeliu's dream of finally unifying steppe
and plain in what is today PRC.
5. Khubilai was not Yuan emperor, he was Khakhan of the Mongol empire
and Beijing was Dadu (city of the great khan).
6. Khubilai sent Han engineers and workers to build irrigation works
in Iraq and Iran per request by Hulegu. Khubilai also send the same work
corps to Russia to build the new capitol of the golden horde at Sarai,
Saratov, near Volgograd(stalingrad).In the siege of Baghdad, Khubilai
sent 50000 Han siege engineers and technicians to help Hulegu. Troops
were also dispatch to help the Ilkhanate during it's war with the Mamelukes.
6. There are more mongols in China/Nei Monggol than inthe Mongolian Republic. 7 -10 million vs. 3million.
7. China preserved the mongol script and is helping Mongolia revive it.
r's
Clive

cliveersknell said:

Some simple facts:
1. There was no so called "china" in Genghis Khan's times.
there was Jin, Song, Xixia, Karakhitai, Dali , etc..

Click to expand...

Get the simple facts. Even at that time, there was long already a Chinese identity, and this one stayed with the Song, although the Jin and Xixia were also heavily sinicizied.

Just because some Han were sent to Iraq and Russia to help with construction works does not mean the boundaries stretch there.

Kublai is NOT and I repeat NOT, the great Khan of the Mongol empire. Already at his time, the Mongols were already fragmented into different Hordes and each has its own dominion. As a matter of fact, the Hordes often fight each other. Please note you have already made numerous historical errors. Kublai did stake his claim to be the great Khan, defeated a rival brother to that claim, and even had his own ceremony to declare himself as such, but the rest of the Mongols and even much of his own family did NOT RECOGNIZE that claim, as the rest of the Mongols thought he was too Sinicized. So in effect, his claim is only good as paper.

The Ming combined had far more technological innovations and development happening in their period than the Yuan and Qing combined. One of these achievements was the 14 ton Yongle bell, where the metallurgical secrets of building its meter long supporting pin has been lost---whatever that could hold a 14 ton brass bell swinging bell had to built to MODERN AVIATION INDUSTRY standards.

Despite the typhoon, Kublai's fleet did reach Japan and they were defeated, though not without some nasty surprises for the Samurais.

Here is something about the Mongol invasion of Vietnam:



"In 1225 the Tran family, which had effectively controlled the Vietnamese throne for many years, replaced the Ly dynasty by arranging a marriage between one of its members and the last Ly monarch, an eight-year-old princess. Under the Tran dynasty (1225-1400), the country prospered and flourished as the Tran rulers carried out extensive land reform, improved public administration, and encouraged the study of Chinese literature. The Tran, however, are best remembered for their defense of the country against the Mongols and the Cham. By 1225, the Mongols controlled most of northern China and Manchuria and were eyeing southern China, Vietnam, and Champa. In 1257, 1284, and 1287, the Mongol armies of Kublai Khan invaded Vietnam, sacking the capital at Thang Long (renamed Hanoi in 1831) on each occasion, only to find that the Vietnamese had anticipated their attacks and evacuated the city beforehand. Disease, shortage of supplies, the climate, and the Vietnamese strategy of harassment and scorched earth tactics foiled the first two invasions. The third Mongol invasion, of 300,000 men and a vast fleet, was also defeated by the Vietnamese under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao. Borrowing a tactic used by Ngo Quyen in 938 to defeat an invading Chinese fleet, the Vietnamese drove iron-tipped stakes into the bed of the Bach Dang River (located in northern Vietnam in present-day Ha Bac, Hai Hung, and Quang Ninh provinces), and then, with a small Vietnamese flotilla, lured the Mongol fleet into the river just as the tide was starting to ebb. Trapped or impaled by the iron-tipped stakes, the entire Mongol fleet of 400 craft was sunk, captured, or burned by Vietnamese fire arrows. The Mongol army retreated to China, harassed enroute by Tran Hung Dao's troops."

Kublai started as a brilliant military leader and social visionary. His mother was in fact a Nestorian Christian that taught him the ways that to rule a society, one must be frugal and tolerant.

Kublai Khan was true to being tolerant, and he allowed different religions to be tolerated in his empire including Nestorian Christianity which was expelled by the Songs.

But he failed in that other lesson and that is being frugal. He built extravagant palaces in Dadu/Beijing and Shandu aka Xanadu. His failures in his expeditions to Japan and Vietnam also cost him and China serious money. Part of his inventions was the Paper Currency, and with that, also started the first RUNAWAY INFLATION in history. His extravagance nearly made China bankrupt, and it was taxed heavily on the peasants. No wonder they revolted soon after wards and kicked the Yuan out. Despite his achievements, Kublai Khan also laid the seeds of his own empire's destruction. In the end he died an obese drunkard who in the latter years of his reign, was so obsessed with personal pleasures and gluttony---yeah he became seriously fat---that he did not mind the affairs of his empire and let it be. So the rot began to creep in.

In irony it was also in the religious tolerance that also laid the seeds of the Yuan's defeat. An apocalyptic Buddist sect (think of the Aum Shinryu Kyo in steroids) called the White Lotus was instrumental in bringing down the Yuan, and one of its offshoots, the Red Turbans, burned down Xanadu.

Today, the Chinese only celebrates the downfall of one dynasty while they never celebrated any other dynasty's downfall, not even that of the Qing. That dynasty's downfall happens to be that of the Yuan. This is called Moon Cake festival. It is believed that the revolutionaries communicated among themselves by hiding cryptic paper messages in the cakes (an idea that also led to the Fortune Cookie) and in those messages was the time of the revolt. Thus they were able to synchronize their insurrection across an empire.

Hi Crobato
1. Pls read Prof.John Man's Book on Khubilai, and tell me what you think.
2. You missed out an important part of Viet/Mongol history, emperor tran
thui made a wise decision to continue to pay tribute to Khubilai.
3. During the reign of Emperor Khaishan, Khubilai's grandson, Kaidu passed away, and all Khans of different Khanates came to Dadu to pay homage to
Khaishan.
4. A significant phase transition occured during the Yuan dynasty,- there was no more fracturing into multipolar states after it's fall.
5. Yuan also defined China's present borders.
6. None of the Han based dynasties were able to rule Tibet, Nei/Outer
Mongolia, Xinjiang, Qinghai, Manchuria(dongbei), Dali. This reflects on their military capabilities vs. the Yuan and Qing.
7. Everybody knows both in PRC and in the whole world, that the mongol
armies are among the world's best. Ask them about the Tang, Ming , Qin
or Han, people will just shrug their shoulders.
8. Go visit and see for yourself how much China
has invested to the glory of the CK. A similar thing is in the works now
in Xanadu.
From the way you interpret chinese history, may I say, that you are
an overseas chinese born and raised not in the PRC. Correct me if I am
wrong, but I can see a clear distinct view between PRC individuals and
overseas chinese with regards to the Yuan and Qing rule in China.
r's
Clive

cliveersknell said:

........
5. Yuan also defined China's present borders.
6. None of the Han based dynasties were able to rule Tibet, Nei/Outer
Mongolia, Xinjiang, Qinghai, Manchuria(dongbei), Dali. This reflects on their military capabilities vs. the Yuan and Qing.
7. Everybody knows both in PRC and in the whole world, that the mongol
armies are among the world's best. Ask them about the Tang, Ming , Qin
or Han, people will just shrug their shoulders.
.......

Click to expand...

Is there any need in keep repeating these same points ? I have made an example of the limitation of looking at the size & border of nations to define their greatness already. I think others have addressed this also.
U should at least give your thoughts on these counter-arguments or raise some additional points to further support your case, instead you go like...
you: they have largest borders, therefore greatest.
others: blah .. blah,
you: I still think they have largest borders, therefore greatest.
others: blah .. blah,
you: But I really still think they have largest borders, therefore greatest.
.....
U see where this will go ?

Last post U said the 'world share your opinion' , now you say 'Everybody' will shrug their shoulders about the other dynasties. Who is 'the world', 'everybody' ? As I've pointed out, without giving some world survey or proofs, you look like just wishfully thinking or making things up.

Another thing I'd like to point out is despite repeatedly saying Yuan defines current PRC border to support your case that it's the best, you continue to leave out PRC in your list of greatest. So why not put them together in the list if they have similar border ? Is it because U see PRC is Han so U leave it out ? PRC is among the list of available choices at the top of this thread.

The thread ask for the best dynasty, but instead of naming the best one, U keep naming two Yuan & Qing. No big problem with that except that you stop at two leaving out PRC despite repeatedly emphasizing the border point. And keep raising the Han vs non-Han issue as if it's important to determine the best.
U try to give an impression that you're arguing rationally but I strongly suspect you've already decided to pick the two non-Han dynasties from start, then proceeded to find points to back it up.
Frankly, I find this reprehensible behaviour.

cliveersknell said:

Hi Crobato
1. Pls read Prof.John Man's Book on Khubilai, and tell me what you think.
2. You missed out an important part of Viet/Mongol history, emperor tran
thui made a wise decision to continue to pay tribute to Khubilai.

Click to expand...

Why don't you show me that reference?

By the way, Esen Taiji and Altan Khan still paid tribute to the Ming did they not?

3. During the reign of Emperor Khaishan, Khubilai's grandson, Kaidu passed away, and all Khans of different Khanates came to Dadu to pay homage to
Khaishan.

Click to expand...

So what? Today's heads of government do that when another passes away in one country.

4. A significant phase transition occured during the Yuan dynasty,- there was no more fracturing into multipolar states after it's fall.

Click to expand...

Your historical revisionism. The fracturing of multipolar states already occured during Kublai, when other Mongol refuses to acknowledge him as the Great Khan. Furthermore, the Golden Horde adopted Islam while Kublai converted to Buddism.

5. Yuan also defined China's present borders.

Click to expand...

Does not change the fact that the Han and Tang Dynasties nearly has as much territory as the PRC did.

6. None of the Han based dynasties were able to rule Tibet, Nei/Outer
Mongolia, Xinjiang, Qinghai, Manchuria(dongbei), Dali. This reflects on their military capabilities vs. the Yuan and Qing.

Click to expand...

Lies. Xinjiang, Qinghai, parts of Manchuria and Tibet were already controlled by the Han and Tang Dynasty.

7. Everybody knows both in PRC and in the whole world, that the mongol
armies are among the world's best. Ask them about the Tang, Ming , Qin
or Han, people will just shrug their shoulders.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. Everyone around the world knew that the Ming achieved a level of technical achievement that surpasses even Europe at that time. Why, did the Qing or the Yuan ever achieved the voyages Zheng He did?

Look at the military achievements and technology decay of the Qing. They lost their ass to the Japanese. Back in the 1500s, the Ming assisting the Koreans, were able to hold back the Japanese in the Imjin Wars. At that time, Ming cannons were clearly superior to the Portugese ones imported by the Japanese. The Koreans used the same technologies from the Ming to build cannons that were used in their warships, and enabled them to rout the Japanese navy.

During the Qing's era, British gunboats were able to out range the cannons used in the Qing warjunks at the Opium Wars.

The Japanese know that the Tang is what gave them the Chinese element in their culture. Much of the Chinese "language" inside Japanese are the Tang's, while an earlier portion came from the Wu. Mannerisms, dress and things like that, also came from the Tang, like the Kimonos. The art of Japanese swordmaking was passed from the Tang.

And start reading about the Terracotta army of the Qin. From it, modern China and the entire world are now starting to see how well equipped and organized the Qin was. The Qin is able to defeat both southern groups and the Hun, which shows you their remarkable ability to adapt and beat warfare of different styles.

Who do you think is the most famous military personage of all in China, whose works are studied from the US to Japan, and even multinational corporations. Its no other than Sun Tzu.

In the end, what the Mongols contributed to the art of warfare was in fact a dead end. What the Chinese developed, from treatises like Sun Tzu, to the development of ship design (compass, bulkheads, etc,.) to steel, swords making, invention of crossbows, cannon and gunpowder, proved far more lasting.

8. Go visit

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and see for yourself how much China
has invested to the glory of the CK. A similar thing is in the works now
in Xanadu.

Click to expand...

Nothing compared how much is invested in the restoration of temples in Shaolin, or the Great Wall, or temples in Xian, or the Olympics.

From the way you interpret chinese history, may I say, that you are
an overseas chinese born and raised not in the PRC. Correct me if I am
wrong, but I can see a clear distinct view between PRC individuals and
overseas chinese with regards to the Yuan and Qing rule in China.
r's
Clive

Click to expand...

Wrong. People in mainland China actually don't have high regards to the Yuan and Qing Dynasties. The Yuan is noted for their extravagance and military failures that led to the near bankruptcy of the country, and oppressively high taxes that brought them down early. The Qing is known for its part in turning China from the most advanced country in the world to the lamest.

To the Japanese and to a lot of people around the world, the most famous Chinese military period is in fact the Three Kingdoms, now firmly embedded in the consciousness of video games to anime. A lot of kids don't know WTF the generals of the Qin, Han, Song or Ming or people like Qin Huang Di, Yu Fei, Qi Jiquang, Koxinga, or even Kublai Khan.

But they certainly know who Cao Cao, Lu Bu, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang, or Liu Bei is.

And the most famous Chinese military personage other than Sun Tzu is to the West is no other than Mulan because of all the movies done about her.

To the Japanese and to a lot of people around the world, the most famous Chinese military period is in fact the Three Kingdoms, now firmly embedded in the consciousness of video games to anime. A lot of kids don't know WTF the generals of the Qin, Han, Song or Ming or people like Qin Huang Di, Yu Fei, Qi Jiquang, Koxinga, or even Kublai Khan.

But they certainly know who Cao Cao, Lu Bu, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang, or Liu Bei is.

Click to expand...

Confirmed, I am one of those overseas kids (actually thats decades ago), but i know more thanks to discussion like this. As for the concensus, i know for sure that the locals regards the Tang as the epitome of chinese dynaties and Ming scores high for its military ability (from the views of most of my chinese friends here in China). Most of the chinese heroes drawn today is in style with the Ming military armor.

China did fragment post Yuan and post Qing. Look at the major civil war that theoretically is still on-going today, all that fuss about the tiny island called Taiwan.

Another interesting observation is how those non Han rulers tend to be absorbed into the main Han culture after they were ovethrown. Look at the Manchus. My wife is half manchu and she knows not a single word of Machu language. They even change their name to Han name.

Militarilly I cannot ignore the greatness of the Yuan/mongols, but their governance system is very poor and cannot maintain the large teritories. To me, this is not what great empire should be. A great empire should be advanced in all fronts that include military, cultural, and technology that can be felt long after the demise of the empire.

Culturally, I dont think many people can argue the superiority of the Han culture. Its a giant blackhole that constantly swallow minority culture and constantly evolving. This continuous evolution is also partly why china and many of the chinese overseas community is successful till the present day.

Technologically, well i think crobato have covered that argument.

I think excluding the dynasty controlled by Han race in the ranking is absolutely rubbish with these overwhelming evidence discussed in this thread.