China Flanker Thread II

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by sumdud, Jan 12, 2008.

  1. vincent
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    vincent Senior Member

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    Tam was referring to the J-15EW

    Yes, the gray area on the left side of regular J-15 is metal because of the gun (greater endurance of the flashes from the cannon). It is highly unlikely for J-15EW to have a gun
     
  2. by78
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    by78 Colonel

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    I don't think you've been following the conversation carefully. Tam is now referring to my photo, specifically to the gray patch on the starboard side, which he thinks is not metallic.
     
    #6742 by78, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  3. Tam
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    Tam Senior Member
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    We have had this argument more than 12 years ago in the Key Publishing Forums yeah? The Russians love to use Titanium on their aircraft because as a resource, they got the most of it compared to the entire world. But not China. Ever since the Flanker is Sinocized, there has been a deliberate migration to move much of the plane's construction to non Titanium sources, and instead to materials the Chinese domestic industries do plenty of. That means composites and if it comes to metal, duraluminum. Chinese aviation industries do supply sections of commercial aircraft to Airbus and Boeing, and that entails using aircraft composite. And yes, even the load bearing areas are composite, and they can be many times stronger than steel. Composite is also used for missile construction, and also to rocket lifters, right to the Long March, and I am talking just about much of it, that means the load bearing monoque. This also goes hand in hand with reports and stories that the Sino-Flankers have reduced RCS, which again goes with the use of composites and meta-materials. Bare metal on the fighter? You would not want that. Exposed bare metal, not covered by RAM, increases RCS. The reflection on the metal also increases detection by IRST and Mark 1 eyeball. Its also natural for an EW/SEAD aircraft to want to be as stealthy as possible. Dedicated EW aircraft differs from fighters carrying EW pods, because EW fighters carry things within the aircraft itself, and that means arrays, for detection and jamming.
     
  4. Deino
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    Deino Brigadier
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    To admit I don't remember this discussion and I for my part find it quite useless. To assume it is an array since the Chinese don't like Titanium or replace certain parts with a domestic solution so that by this conclusion this must be here too is IMO wrong.

    IMO - esp. if you look at the countless close-up images available - it looks exactly the same as on any other Flanker, and therefore it is the same: Just a metal (Titanium) piece in that area since it is probably simply the best material in that area.

    And that's it ...
     
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  5. Tam
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    Tam Senior Member
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    I assume that is an array because the plane has an EW function and they removed the gun to support that. What would they remove the gun for? Its not to put composite, which may already have happened previously. You remove the gun to obviously put something there and the most likely thing to be put would be an EW support array.

    In the history of EW specific aircraft like the Growler, things are installed inside the plane to support this function, which makes them a bit more than a fighter carrying EW pods.

    Images only show the root of the wing to be grey, not the side under the cockpit, which the J-16s are. Not to mention using color and shine is an unreliable method since composite structures for aircraft are indeed silvery and grey, due to the use of carbon nanofiber.

    As for the Chinese not liking Titanium, there is more to that. Flankers are flux welded Titanium, and to do that, the parts needed to be done inside a room filled with Argon gas. Without using Argon gas, any oxygen and nitrogen that goes into the weld would eventually cause the welds to crack. The whole process is tedious and slow, not to mention expensive. The use of a special argon gas facility puts the manufacturing into a bottleneck, not to mention you are going to be competing with other applications of titanium welding that includes various commercial uses. Another thing is that the Russians have a special procedure of their own, call it a secret sauce if you will, for flux welding titanium for the plane, one of the things they appeared to not have divulged to the Chinese as part of their trade secrets. They hoped that they would eternally provide components for the aircraft, and keeping the Chinese dependent for Russian provided kits of these essential sections (J-11A), and under their political influence for that. Attempts by the Chinese to replicate the process on their own failed to attain the same level of quality.

    In contrast if you are already supplying aviation companies with composite sections, like for commercial aircraft, it wold be natural to reverse engineer the aircraft to make better use of your production competence and facilities, reduce your costs, bypass any trade secrets held from you and free your production bottlenecks. In the long run, the replacement of composite is superior to titanium in long term durability, not as equally subjected to hairline cracks, and provides the combat advantage of helping to reduce your radar cross section.
     
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  6. Bltizo
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    Bltizo Moderator
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    I think that is not a safe assumption at all.

    First of all, as others have said, just because it is grey doesn't mean it is necessarily an array of any kind. Yes, the plane has an EW function, and yes, we do expect the plane to have extra additional antennae and/or arrays intrinsic to the airframe itself (which we do also see even discounting that grey panel you think is an array) -- however that doesn't mean the grey panel itselfis an array.

    Yes, the reason to remove the gun is likely to support an EW function, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an array. They could be using that space for extra internal backend hardware for other EW functions, like back end processing or even the back end systems for other positively IDed EW arrays/antennae that we've seen on the aircraft.


    I think at this stage the safest statement we can make is that the grey panels you refer to have the possibility of being an array of some sort, but there is nothing particularly convincing to think that it is yet.


    this cutaway of an EA-18G shows some of the additional systems that an EA-18G has from a regular F/A-18F, and we can see some of the systems are not necessarily extra antennae or pods, but also internal avionics support systems.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Twix101
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    Twix101 Junior Member

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    There nothing to back my claims but I have the impression that the J-11D might be some kind of testbed for J-31 avionics. There is something wrong with the J-11D radome from an external point of view, if you look at both J-16 and J-15D, they keep the standard nose cone while the J-11D has a slanted nose cone, it also looks smaller in aperture size.

    It would be nice to have a size comparison between J-11D and J-31. But to me, the J-11D program is intriguing.
     
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  8. defenceman
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    defenceman Junior Member
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    Hi AFB( airforce brat ) I hope you don’t mind writing your short call sign a quick Q please why all the flankers are painted with tractor paint on the wheels most of the time any specific reason to paint them in this colour
    Your input please
    Thank you
     
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  9. kwaigonegin
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    kwaigonegin Colonel

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    I'm not AFB but I'll take a shot. The answer is because it is. I know boring answer. There is nothing magical or specific to why it is painted John Deere.. which in itself is also based on history/tradition since you don't see pink or blue John Deere tractors!!
    It could be traditional or historical since Russian flankers and most of their military aircraft are also painted green and China just followed suite since the color of the wheel in the grand scheme of things is really insignificant like farm tractors. It's the same reason why many cockpits in Russian warplanes are painted blue!

    sometimes things are just exactly what it is with no other ulterior reasons.

    Green or dull color including white shows corrosion easier. It's also easier to spot leaks etc.
    In the past zinc chromate for primer when use on aluminum gives a greenish hue but these days it's not necessary because you can paint the wheels whatever color you want. I'm going with tradition and history. :)
     
  10. defenceman
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    defenceman Junior Member
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