China Flanker Thread II

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
This makes me wonder if Su-35 will be purchased in another batch or new variant of sino-flanker appear that is not J-15 type or J-16. It would indicate the possibility that SAC and sub-system manufacturers are actually behind Sukhoi + Tik/Phaz in producing the most capable flanker. Of course China's national resources for the task of developing high end fighters are not really focused on the best air-superiority flanker but there is much life in this airframe it seems. After all they are planning on investing in EW version of carrier flankers and multirole flankers like J-16. I think PLAAF went with J-16 for the role of J-11D since they overlap so much it makes little sense to dilute the quality of the product.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The J-11B does not use an AESA radar, that goes to the J-11D which is introduced at a much later date. The J-11B's radar moreover is also comparable to the other variants that Russia offers for its Su-30MKIs and MKMs. And I can understand why Russia is reluctant to include that in the sale after what China did with the Su-27K. What ever suspicions that Russia have before hand however unsubstantiated at the time, were confirmed in this act.
And during the time when the Su-30MKK contract was sign. AESA radars aren't widespread yet, the earliest one. Only Japan and the USA are starting to gradually introduce AESA radars to a few of their fighters at the time. And for export fighters, many nations would not have been able to purchase any AESA radar equipped fighters in significant numbers, the ones that can are already established US customers to begin with anyway.
That China eventually figure AESA radars out themselves is laudable, but it is to be pointed out that they have save significant effort and time adapting the Su-27 airframe to suit their purpose, even if done without permission.

J-11D uses an AESA and at this time, the Su-35 and Su-30SMs are still using PESAs. J-16 also uses an AESA and an operational one whereas Russia still has some time to go before putting one into operational stage.

J-11B uses a slotted array radar that is operational when Phazotron are still offering Zhuk prototypes. Phazotron was offering Zhuks to the Chinese but it is the Russian generals that stopped the exportation of them for fear that the Chinese Su-27s might end up being too advanced compared to what the RuAF had, which still eventually did happen but Russia got no income from that. By then Type 1475 was already considered a second generation slotted array compared to the JL-10 that appeared in JH-7s and Type 1471 that first appeared in later J-8IIs.

At the time when the Su-30MKK contract was signed, slotted array radars were already in use for the last twenty years. Slotted array radars started appearing with the first F-14s, F-15s and F-16s. Even the J-7G had a small slotted array.

J-7G_radar.jpg

Adapting the Su-27 to AESA did not save significant effort and time --- the J-10s had AESAs first with the J-10B and J-20 prototypes were already flying. The J-11s were in fact, behind with their first AESA planes.

As far as rejection goes, there are many reasons why a radar will be rejected. One very common reason is that it didn't work to the satisfaction of the customer. Also, the Russians are fond of offering prototypes that require quite a bit of development funding to make them fit for operational use. In other words, half baked projects that are charging a fee to get them fully baked. The offers from Phazotron and NIIP are private ventured, not government backed or financed. Rather its the other way around, once the radar has been financed by the Chinese, developed into operational use, the Russians turn around and sells them to other international customers (see Su-30MKK variants in other countries) and eventually adopted to the Russian Air Force (see N001VP or N001VEP radar).
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
On this I disagree, if India only had problems with Russia this claim might be more believable. But insofar India have had problems near every single modern military procurement. Ranging from the Rafale, to the M777 and finally the S-400. The reasons are all near similar, that India demands complete technology transfer, alongside local production and also assurance on the quality of the locally made versions. No nation in its right mind would agree to such terms. On the flip side, Vietnam has been a consistent customer of Russian Arms. And as far as thing seem, it does look like they are getting their money's worth.
Also is it so surprising that Russia would seek to limit what kind of technology that it is willing to sell to China ? During that time, relations between the 2 countries have only just stabilized. And the Chinese at that point have already been active at trying to carve out their own place in the international arms sale. So why should Russia be so keen as to prop up a potential rival that fast without first assessing their intentions ?
But this discussion is veering off topic, so I suggest that we leave it at this and agree to disagree.

I agree with what you said. India is at times unreasonable to demand a 100% ToT on all things purchased especially considering they are not key partners in many of the programs. The trick is demand as much as you can w/o being overly zeolous.
China does that quite well in regards to getting just enough w/o having Russia/out nations outright cancelling them. That's a page India needs to take from the Chinese playbook. Don't demand 100%, demand 80/90% etc.. figure out the 10-20% yourself. It bodes well for everyone and win win really.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I would agree that KNAAPO probably needed to be compensated better as they lost out the most from the J-11 copying. Do note that the Chinese leadership favors economically boosting KNAAPO, which is located just north of the Chinese-Russian border of Heliojiang near the Amur river. This factory is pretty close to China, and China seems to have their own reasons for economically supporting areas near the Chinese border.

Every Flanker contract China inks has to do with KnAAPO with the sole exception of the a batch of Su-27UBKs that came from the Irkutsk factory. Irkutsk is located north of the Mongolian border with Russia, and the factory supplies Su-30MKI to India, and various Su-30s to lets say Kazakhstan and Malaysia. Su-30MKK type planes made for export are built by KnAAPO. Su-35s are also built by KnAAPO. This is to illustrate the Flanker factionalism between Irkutsk and KnAAPO, with China clearly favoring KnAAPO product, and which China may have their own political reasons to boost the economy of the Amur river region (long time ago was under the Qing Dynasty). I believe some of the Kilo subs that China uses were also made in the Amur, and China also considered the purchase of the Lada-Amur class of submarines, but the failure of the AIP systems with these submarines throw cold water in the interest at the present.


Once political reason is established in order to support KnAAPO and the economy of the Amur region, will China continue to order more Su-35s?
 

by78

General
A magazine scan version of a previously posted photo of J-16

(2048 x 1221)
42081119732_1b9d067c56_k.jpg
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Looks like the newer J-16s have an application of RAM or different RAM to previous RAM coatings. Is J-16 completely intended as a dedicated striker or is it as capable in air to air as something like Su-35?
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Looks like the newer J-16s have an application of RAM or different RAM to previous RAM coatings. Is J-16 completely intended as a dedicated striker or is it as capable in air to air as something like Su-35?

J-16 should be able to carry out BVR attacks as well as engage in short-range maneuvering fights like the Su-35, although the lack of a TVC engine puts it at a kinematic disadvantage vis-a-vis the Su-35. However, the adoption of a TVC-ed WS-10 variant for the J-16 shouldn't be a difficult prospect in the future, so the jet definitely has potential to rival the Su-35 in terms of air-to-air combat.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
J11 fully loaded?..
...R-27 infrared guided missile has a range > 40 Km
...some carry 2R-27 & 2 R-73 heavy bombs...

The engine intake hardpoints are empty so I would say no. As a comparison the Indian Flanker can carry at least 12 missiles on all its hard points
296eac19890c7b2780556e07fb8e8405.jpg

Now before anyone starts a flame war, I said "AS A COMPARISON". I fully expect the J-11s to be capable of lugging at least an equivalent loadout. But the one in the pic is clearly not.
Also, man does that guy in the blue felt hat look like a midget. The height difference between him and the guy next to him in the last pic is unbelievable.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
His motives notwithstanding, he has a point. Those J-11 are carrying only 4x to 6x AAM. Below are J-11B carrying atleast 9x AAM and Su-30MKK carrying 6x Kh-31.
I counted only 4 on that pic beforehand, 4 seems to be the standard loadout in peacetime. 6-8 would be the standard fare in active combat. A completely decked out fighter is unlikely because it puts to much weight and drag on the fighter. It looks good in photo shoots to be sure but that's that.
 
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