China Flanker Thread II

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Blitzo

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If the PLAAF wanted to compensate for the low Flanker production with a J-11B analogue, then buying only twenty-four Su-35s would not address the problem one bit.

Hence, the only plausible reason why anybody would buy such a low number of Flanker-Es would be for either its engine or its radar. Now, avionics are becoming less likely of a reason for a notional purchase (due to installation of powerful radars on J-16 and soon J-15), which leaves the 117S engine as the sole selling point of the Su-35.

Actually some persistent rumors also said 48 Su-35s...

But in any case, even if it were only for 24 Su-35s (one regiment's worth), that is about the output of flankers from SAC for a year. Can you imagine how much extra additional capability one or even two years of equivalent flanker production will bring? So no, I can't understand how you can say it wouldn't help "one bit".

In fact I agree that Su-35 does not bring many additional useful or unique capabilities to the PLA meaning the infusion of additional airframes itself is (or rather was) a likely key driver.
 

Engineer

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But in any case, even if it were only for 24 Su-35s (one regiment's worth), that is about the output of flankers from SAC for a year. Can you imagine how much extra additional capability one or even two years of equivalent flanker production will bring? So no, I can't understand how you can say it wouldn't help "one bit".
No extra capability, actually. If PLAAF wants more forth-generation aircraft, more J-10 can be ordered, which isn't hampered by WS-10's production rate. If it is simply number that PLAAF after, there are J-7s that can be refurbished and upgraded. Imported Su-35 won't offer better capabilities than that, since it cannot readily integrate into China's C4ISR on top of not being able to launch Chinese weapons.

Imagine yourself being a PLA general. Now imagine a bunch of Russian mercenaries also fall under your command. Great, you now have more men. However, these men are not willing to adapt to the existing organization structure, and tell you to adapt your organization around them. Worse, they only eat imported Russian rations, and none of them speak Chinese so cannot communicate with your other forces. So, you have to provide translators, who are expensive and vulnerable. Your orders now have to get through an extra layer. You have to allocate your existing logistical capacity for carrying Russian rations to accommodate the mercenaries. This whole thing just requires more effort than gain. If I were the general, I would just make do with less men, thank you very much.

The whole "China wants Su-35 for 117S engines" is just as lame as the excuse that says "China can't produce J-11 fast enough". Just look at military transports. With Il-476, China could have gained access to Russian high-bypass turbofan engines. What did China get in the end? Second-hand Il-76. It is simply not China's nature to go after the latest gadgets, ditto Su-35 and 117S engines.

It is no-brainer why there could be no deal. From Russia's pointer of view, making China dependent on Russian systems would enable Russia to have continuous source of revenues from weapons sell, spare parts, upgrades, and other after-sell services. From China's point of view, it is all about independence. The two positions are mutually exclusive.
 
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Blitzo

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@ engineer; Su-35/flankers are substantially longer ranged than J-10s. The basis of my idea is that the PLA needs more long ranged fighters aka flankers which SAC might not be able to provide for whatever reason

(Btw I'm not sure what you mean by ordering more J-10s and WS-10s? As of yet J-10s are not equipped with WS-10s and we do not know whether CAC can produce J-10s at a faster rate than they currently are)

And you misinterpret what I meant by "extra capability"; I don't mean extra capability as in "Su-35 is better as a plane versus X Y or Z," but rather that an extra regiment or two worth of flankers in general is an infusion of quite a lot of additional capability, on top of whatever the maximum annual indigenous production of fighters will be.

That said i am hardly arguing that these are reasons why the PLA should buy Su-35s, rather trying to find some likely possible reasons if the deal one day actually goes down. Like you've said,indigenous data linking, logistics, command capabilities are things the PLA will want for their Su-35s first before they commit to a buy
 

Jeff Head

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Over the last ten years, we have heard...over and over again...rumors out of Russia saying that the Chinese are going to buy:

Tu-26 Backfires and import an entire Russian plant to do so.
SU-24 Strike Aircraft
SU-34 Strike Aircraft
Su-30s (More over what they already purchased
SU-35 Air Superiority fighters (this is the latest incarnation)

But my contention is that the Chinese are past the need or desire to import more Russian aircraft that have to use Russian sensors, Russian weapons, and Russian engines.

Let's review the history.

Back in 1991 the Chinese began taking delivery of SU-27s from Russia (75 altogether I believe) and then license built more in China as the J-11. I believe about 100 J-11s were produced.

They did this up until the time that they reverse engineered the design and then built the J-11B. The J-11B is almost entirely indigenous to China, and they have built (I believe) over 120 of them now. For China, their own J-11B China is a newer, better SU-27 that works with all of the Chinese sensors and weapons...and added other niceties that the Chinese designed into it.

Back at the tail end of the Chinese purchase of Russian combat aircraft, the Chinese purchased a number SU-30MKK and SU-30MK2 aircraft. Seventy six SU-30MKK were delivered between 2000-2003 to the PLAAF, and 24 SU-30MK2 were delivered in 2004 to the PLANAF. They did this, as with the SU-27, to provide a very useful stop gap between their aged aircraft and the new aircraft they wanted to bring into service themselves. But they knew that there was going to be a time gap...so they brought on the SU-30s too.

Since then, no more SU-30s have been purchased...all rumors aside.

Instead, now, the Chinese are starting to produce their own J-16. I believe probably as many as 12-24 of them have been produced now. Again, for China their own J-16 is a newer, better SU-30MKK that works with all of the Chinese sensors and weapons...and adds other niceties that the Chinese designed into it.

Then came time for the Chinese to develop their carrier born aircraft. Lots of rumors said they were going to buy the SU-33 from Russia. But the Chinese only needed to acquire a single SU-33 prototype (and that from the Ukraine) and then used it and their own J-11Bs to produce their J-15 naval strike fighter. They have produced at least six prototypes and now about a dozen full production aircraft. And you know what? The J-15 for China is a newer, better SU-33 that works with all of the Chinese sensors and weapons...and added other niceties that the Chinese designed into it.

I believe the pattern is clear.

The Chinese got very decent Russian aircraft as stop gaps when they needed them most. They did this, ultimately in only two arenas, the SU-27 and the SU-30 aircraft. They did so for two purposes:

1) A stop gap to give them a decent number of more modern, more capable aircraft to help counter any western threats. (About 275 aircraft altogether)

2) To help jump start their own aircraft industries with reverse engineered designs that met or exceeded the capabilities they had acquired from Russia, and did it with Chinese sensors and weapons...which was and is a huge benefit for China.

They then went on in the two areas (Su-27 and SU-30) to produce their own aircraft (J-11B and J-16), and then leveraged the knowledge they had acquired and their own production capability to produce a third (the J-15) without having to buy any Russian aircraft at ll.

Since the last SU-30MK2s were delivered, the Chinese have not made any more new combat aircraft purchases like the SU-27s and the SU-30s. It has been over ten years.

Instead, the Chinese have developed and deployed their own J-10 aircraft, and done so in strong numbers. And, more recently, they have developed their own 5th generation fighter (the J-20) and are on the brink of putting it into production.

They now have a full range of indigenous aircraft that use Chinese sensors, use Chinese weapons and use Chinese engines...even their engine industry is not quite up to where the Chinese want it.

JH-7A Strike/Attack
J-10 Fighter/Attack
J-11B Fighter
J-15 Naval Strike Fighter
J-16 Strike
J-20 (coming)) 5th Generation Fighter

All of these are capable aircraft and all of them fully leverage Chinese comm, Chinese sensors, Chinese weapons...and are positioned to fully leverage Chinese engine technology.

As a result of all of this, and the history of it, I simply do not believe that the Chinese have any need or desire to go backwards in this...meaning back to acquiring Russian aircraft (however good) that require Russian sensors, Russian weapons, and Russian engines.

I believe the Chinese are past that.
 
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Deino

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Anyone noticed the wingtip pylons on the J-11 on the left ??

It's no longer the typical J-11B wingtip pylon for the PL-8 but the old and new Su-27SK and J-16 pylon for the R-73 and also the latest PL-10 ... so what J-11 is this ???

Deino

J-11B and BH + strange pylon at SAC - 25.2.15.jpg
 

Deino

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Looks kinda old, and the vertical tail camo looks like classic Su27Sk.

Are we sure that is a J11 and not just a Su27SK?


I had a similar ide, however for a regular Su-27SK it has a too light colour ... my first impression, when A.Man posted it at first was, that bird is a new J-11BH for the PLANAF.

Deino
 
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