China Buys Tu-22MB Bomber Production Line from Russia

leibowitz

Junior Member
All good points which the Russians understood as well. They were prepated to send them out in brute force to overwhelm the defenses, which is still possible.

Quite true, but it wouldn't be economical.

If the PLAN had the production capabilities, you can be sure that the new ones they put off the line would address as many of the points you raise as possible.

1) Range and Vulnerability: Answer, refuel them en route and as they return at predesignated spots out of harms way. As to vulnerability, see below.

Improved operating procedure is kind of a stop-gap, and still doesn't address the fact that the J-20 is an infinitely more survivable delivery system.

2) C4ISR; Answer: Integrate the better components into their very large airframes as you build them. New components designed by the PLAn to address the comms, the EW issues, the other vulnerabilities etc.

I'm sure this could be done, but again, it would ridiculously expensive; it would be a significant fraction of simply building a new plane.

3)Expense: Answer: The PLAN would have to determine that it was worth it, or at least enough so to make it a part of their efforts to address their vulnerabilities.

The only one I see that would negate it...and, IMHO probably already has...is the third. Simply put, is this where they want to spend a big hunk of change? $1.5 billion simply to get into the game. Probably not.

Exactly. It's not just the expense that's an issue--it's that the PLAAF/PLAN would benefit much more from investing that money into things like better engines, better AWACS, real-time satellite intelligence, GPS, tanker capability, wideband datalinks, and pilot training.

But make no mistake, a modernised PLAN Backfire with new electronics and new weapons would be a very real threat that would have to be taken very seriously.

Agreed here. Unfortunately, a modernized PLAN Backfire would also mean sacrificing needed improvements in many other areas, while not really adding that much to the PLAAF/PLAN combat suite.

J-20 has small weapons bays, it won`t carry cruise missiles, Tu-22M can carry cruise missiles letting it fire them at 1600km of the target and in the future 2000km, it flies at Mach 2.

So they are two different aircraft.

Right; you'll notice I said "a flight of J-20s", which means 4 J-20s replacing a single Tu-22M.

Su-34 is a more capable aircraft as bomber.

J-20 like F-35 is limited to JDAMs or small surface to air missiles.

J-20 is a tactical multirole aircraft.

Tu-22M a theater of operations supersonic bomber.

Yep, exactly the point: the J-20 is a more versatile aircraft than the Tu-22M.

Tu-22 can carry 22 tonnes of cruise missilles.

J-20 at the most will carry 3-4 tonnes of weapons and no more than 1 tonne internally like F-35

B-2 is superior to Tu-22M3 but Tu-16 is not

watch the F-22 weapons bays, can you fit a The AGM-158 JASSM inside those bays?

[video=youtube;NXHPJukCeuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHPJukCeuY[/video]

see the size

[video=youtube;r-3wFRZ7VHc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3wFRZ7VHc[/video]

This seems to be the only real advantage of the Tu-22M3 over the J-20--that it can carry heavy, long-range ALCMs and ordnance. If the PLAAF is tasked to interdict USN assets and protect PLAN assets in the Western Pacific (which, quite frankly, will be its primary mission for the next ten to fifteen years or so), then I don't see a need for the PLAAF to have a large ALCM capability on a supersonic airframe. The mission need isn't there. China won't be making air-launched standoff strikes on nations with heavily defended airspace from thousands of kms away in the near future. If China needs to hit Andersen AFB at Guam, Kadena AFB at Okinawa, or Yokosuka Naval Base near Tokyo, it can do that with land-based ballistic and cruise missiles. And if China needs to perform area-denial or protect PLAN assets in the Western Pacific, then it can do that with the J-20 airframe pretty well.

Don't get me wrong--the Tu-22M3 is an amazing airplane, but it's not the right fit for the PLAAF over the next decade.
 
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leibowitz

Junior Member
Now what I would be interested in seeing is China and Russia teaming up to work on the PAK DA. The mid-2020s launch of such an aircraft would fit right with the timing when the PLAAF can move out of a regional capacity and into a global strike role.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
Now what I would be interested in seeing is China and Russia teaming up to work on the PAK DA. The mid-2020s launch of such an aircraft would fit right with the timing when the PLAAF can move out of a regional capacity and into a global strike role.

you mean help fund development, and buy watered down version? :p
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
you mean help fund development, and buy watered down version? :p

That would still be more efficient than starting from scratch, especially if the PAK DA is built on the Tu-160 airframe, and most definitely if China gets high-performance engine turbine technology out of the deal.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
That would still be more efficient than starting from scratch, especially if the PAK DA is built on the Tu-160 airframe, and most definitely if China gets high-performance engine turbine technology out of the deal.

the Russians will not agree to such a good deal for China

also China has its own program running
 

Xiongmao

New Member
Registered Member
Don't get me wrong--the Tu-22M3 is an amazing airplane, but it's not the right fit for the PLAAF over the next decade.

I agree with t_co's sentiments here. I'm a noob here and I have some thoughts which I would like to share. Please don't beat me up, I don't know as much as you guys do :)

If anybody has read the Art of War, one would know that a main theme to gain the upper hand is deception in all its various forms. Therefore, it seems to me that if the enemy sees a plane and assumes that it is something that it is not, then you have the advantage. If China were to develop a brand new class of stealth bomber with all the trimmings, then you can bet that in a time of war the enemy will concentrate full resources to knocking out that piece of kit. However, if your research time and money was used in producing super internal upgrades to airframes such as the H-6, then by all external appearances, these bombers won't be seen as that much of a threat. You don't have to upgrade all H-6's, just a percentage, say 20% of them to make them super H-6s. The enemy will find it hard in a full combat situation to determine how much ordnance to devote to an incoming H-6, it could be a poor 1960s capable bomber or the latest 21st century bomber packed with latest avionics etc. The point is to create uncertainty and doubt in the opponent and make him waste resources. I know all of us here fans would love China to have sexy planes to ogle at, but is that the best strategy for the nation?

On a another point, I think that China should concentrate solely in developing army, navy and air forces for the defence of the motherland and her interests. China should not follow the path of the USA and use force all around the world to further her interests. Besides creating much resentment and drastically affecting her soft power amongst the people's of the world, it is one of the primary reasons why the USA is now facing national bankruptcy. China should spend just enough on protecting herself from foreign intervention and should put the rest on building up her economy and foreign relationships. I am not a military strategist by any means, but it appears to me that creating a force to defend yourself in familiar territory is vastly cheaper than creating a global offensive force. In the end, let the USA waste away like the Roman Empire while China will just get stronger and stronger doing nothing other than keeping her own backyard secure.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
well.. H-6 modernized is still H-6, it can carry long range missiles, but it will not go supersonic or become stealthy

on the other part of your statement, well i'll have to consult my crystal ball :eek:
what's that you say 8-ball? live long enough and you'll become the villain?
 

Speeder

Junior Member
Tu-22-420x297.jpg



Saw this today. What do you think? Another red-herring story? Or the real thing?

First I had heard about the PRC already having six of them. Anyone else hear of this?

The TU-22M is a very dangerous weapons system to this day. The US used the F-14 and Phoenix Missile to counter for carriers. The F/A-18F and the latest AMRAAM missiles have the same capability.

The Russians were prepared to deploy one or two regiments of these aircraft against each carrier. Will China build that many?

Interesting development if true.


In this case the ultimate root source of this EU news is most likely Russian.

It appears, no, it is beyond doubt that Russain major sources particularly Rosoboronexport and RIA novosti are nothing more than kind of “celeb gossips” when it comes to weapon-related sales to China, if their track record of the last decade is a guide.

In fact, a long-overdued conclusion can be drawn that News Editors of Rosoboronexport and RIA novosti have perpetual misunderstanding (due to permanent brain damage or what?) on what constitutes “news” - sth that happened, FACT and what constitutes “wish list” - sth not happened, non factual, at least yet, and perhaps will never happen.

Furthermore, their illusions go so far these days that more often than not “the news” are blended with concrete Russian expert/official names and detailed numbers such as 48, 2, 24, 12, 2 billion, 1.5 billion, 4 billion, 0.75 billion etc. etc., finishing off with fascinating “the contract was signed” that make a fortune teller pale in comparison.

Want to know what are Chinese weapon sales news (a.k.a. factual events)? Quote Xinhua.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
This seems to be the only real advantage of the Tu-22M3 over the J-20--that it can carry heavy, long-range ALCMs and ordnance. If the PLAAF is tasked to interdict USN assets and protect PLAN assets in the Western Pacific (which, quite frankly, will be its primary mission for the next ten to fifteen years or so), then I don't see a need for the PLAAF to have a large ALCM capability on a supersonic airframe. The mission need isn't there. China won't be making air-launched standoff strikes on nations with heavily defended airspace from thousands of kms away in the near future. If China needs to hit Andersen AFB at Guam, Kadena AFB at Okinawa, or Yokosuka Naval Base near Tokyo, it can do that with land-based ballistic and cruise missiles. And if China needs to perform area-denial or protect PLAN assets in the Western Pacific, then it can do that with the J-20 airframe pretty well.

Don't get me wrong--the Tu-22M3 is an amazing airplane, but it's not the right fit for the PLAAF over the next decade.

In my opinion China will develop their own bomber.

The reason why bombers are still in use is simply you can call off a bomber mission and abort the attack, an ICBM can not do that.

UCAVs can be jammed and their control be lost, a bomber has a human brain that can not be jammed.

So a bomber is always an asset.

The USA has its own sixth generation bomber project for a reason.

Su-34 is a compromise of a 4th generation with bomber qualities, but it can carry larger weapons externaly of course.


Tu-22M and J-20 are two different en missions, they are in different roles and niches
 
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