China Buys Tu-22MB Bomber Production Line from Russia

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
First, the Tu-22 is highly, highly vulnerable to interception, and it and the Tu-160 are the planes around which the USN has designed its entire anti-air suite. From a strategic standpoint, it's not really worth it to buy the capability your intended adversary has already spent billions building defenses against.

Second, the Tu-22 is not guaranteed to link well with the tightly linked, 21st-century, C4ISR model that the PLAN/PLAAF want to have. This could turn it into a one-off albatross that looks great on paper but is a pain in the ass for field commanders to use.

Third, the Tu-22 will be expensive and will dilute PLAAF defense budgets away from areas which they really should be focusing on, like UCAVs, 5th-gen avionics, AWACS, and better engines.
All good points which the Russians understood as well. They were prepated to send them out in brute force to overwhelm the defenses, which is still possible.

If the PLAN had the production capabilities, you can be sure that the new ones they put off the line would address as many of the points you raise as possible.

1) Range and Vulnerability: Answer, refuel them en route and as they return at predesignated spots out of harms way. As to vulnerability, see below.

2) C4ISR; Answer: Integrate the better components into their very large airframes as you build them. New components designed by the PLAn to address the comms, the EW issues, the other vulnerabilities etc.

3)Expense: Answer: The PLAN would have to determine that it was worth it, or at least enough so to make it a part of their efforts to address their vulnerabilities.

The only one I see that would negate it...and, IMHO probably already has...is the third. Simply put, is this where they want to spend a big hunk of change? $1.5 billion simply to get into the game. Probably not.

But make no mistake, a modernised PLAN Backfire with new electronics and new weapons would be a very real threat that would have to be taken very seriously.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
All good points which the Russians understood as well. They were preparted to send them out in brute force to overwhelm the defenses, which is still possible.


But make no mistake, a modernised PLAN Backfire with new electronics and new weapons would be a very real threat that would have to be taken very seriously.

Russia is upgrading their Tu-22Ms


Ministry of Defense will start the upgrading of long-range Tu-22M bombers in 2012 (NATO reporting name: Backfire), Izvestiya reports.
Director and Chief designer of Gefest-IT, Alexander Panin, said that the project of Tu-22M upgrade was developed in 2008. «The air forces contacted us in September 2008, right after the war. We have been cooperating with them earlier in the network of Su-24 upgrade. By the way, this contract is still in force. The army wanted us to develop new avionics for Tu-22M. At that they did not present any mission requirements or performance specification», — Panin said.

According to him, the new systems are similar to those successfully installed on Su-24 aircraft; they were tuned up in early 2009. Gefest-IT has equipped one bomber of long-range aviation with the avionics in late 2009. «The basis of new avionics is so-called adaptive control system, which includes aircraft computer, GLONASS navigation system and weapon-aiming system with integrated new software. The system controls all the flight variables taking into account all the external factors», — the Director of the company explained.
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About 30 Tu-22M3 strategic bombers from Russia's Long Range Aviation fleet will be modernized by 2020, Russian Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday
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Equation

Lieutenant General
Russia is upgrading their Tu-22Ms


Ministry of Defense will start the upgrading of long-range Tu-22M bombers in 2012 (NATO reporting name: Backfire), Izvestiya reports.
Director and Chief designer of Gefest-IT, Alexander Panin, said that the project of Tu-22M upgrade was developed in 2008. «The air forces contacted us in September 2008, right after the war. We have been cooperating with them earlier in the network of Su-24 upgrade. By the way, this contract is still in force. The army wanted us to develop new avionics for Tu-22M. At that they did not present any mission requirements or performance specification», — Panin said.

According to him, the new systems are similar to those successfully installed on Su-24 aircraft; they were tuned up in early 2009. Gefest-IT has equipped one bomber of long-range aviation with the avionics in late 2009. «The basis of new avionics is so-called adaptive control system, which includes aircraft computer, GLONASS navigation system and weapon-aiming system with integrated new software. The system controls all the flight variables taking into account all the external factors», — the Director of the company explained.
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About 30 Tu-22M3 strategic bombers from Russia's Long Range Aviation fleet will be modernized by 2020, Russian Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday
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Why Russia is just upgrading the TU-22M when they can just produce more of it? Wouldn't newer planes last longer than an upgraded of an older one?
 

archon

New Member
Why Russia is just upgrading the TU-22M when they can just produce more of it? Wouldn't newer planes last longer than an upgraded of an older one?

My guess, upgrade for the time being. They probably got something new to replace it soon.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Why Russia is just upgrading the TU-22M when they can just produce more of it? Wouldn't newer planes last longer than an upgraded of an older one?

The answer is PAK DA

Russia to create PAK DA fifth-generation strategic bomber
31.07.2012
In actual fact, the construction works are already underway; the parameters of the future bomber have been determined, Alexander Sharavin, the Director of the Institute of Political and Military Analysis said. The timing is more or less clear too: the new aircraft is expected to appear in 2020. The problem is whether the Russian industry can cope with this work. Of course, one can upgrade Tu-95 MS and Tu-160 bombers to save money. However, the issue of a new generation aircraft remains blank. The creation of the new bomber, Alexander Sharavin said, will encourage the development of the defense industry. The aircraft will become the dream that national defense now needs, Victor Litovkin, executive editor of Independent Military Review said. In his words, the implementation of the PAK DA is not just the creation of a specific aircraft model, but a whole set of steps to ensure national security.

Is the Russian aircraft industry ready to make such ambitious dreams come true? Vladimir Shvarev, deputy director of the Center for the Analysis of Global Arms Trade, believes that the domestic industry is hardly ready for it. If Russia wants to take on large projects such as PAK DA, the country will have to predict the development of the situation for the next 15-20 years and develop fundamentally new technologies with an eye for on relatively distant future. The funds (20 trillion rubles) allocated for the creation of the new fifth-generation strategic bomber must be spent with maximum efficiency and under strict control.
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The PAK DA bomber would supplement and partially replace the Tu-160s, Tu-95MSs and Tu-22M3s in service with the long-range aviation establishment in charge of Russia’s land-based strategic bomber aircraft. Russia plans to fly the PAK DA in 2022, said Gen. Anatoly Zhikharev, commander of the strategic bomber force. A basic design has been completed and accepted, and industry is beginning full-scale research and development of the aircraft.
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[video=youtube;PJkcpVhYO6E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJkcpVhYO6E[/video]
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
My guess, upgrade for the time being. They probably got something new to replace it soon.

Internet photo)

Following in the footsteps of Russia, which is working on its PAK-DA fifth-generation strategic bomber, China is looking to develop a bomber with sufficient range to strike the United States, reports our sister newspaper Want Daily.

A piece from state newswire Xinhua said the country's engineers have established the basic concept for a next-generation bomber.

Russia confirmed the design of the PAK-DA bomber this year, including a combat radius of around 3,500 kilometers and a total weight of 100 to 120 tons, including payload. A prototype of the bomber is expected around 2017 and it may enter service somewhere around 2025-2030.

Military sources in Russia said the next-generation bomber will be based on the supersonic Tu-160.

The Xinhua piece said the main requirement for large bombers for the US, China and Russia is that they should be capable of carrying more long-distance cruise missiles. China did not adopt this concept before its CJ-10 land attack cruise missile first appeared in 2009, but now appears to have embraced it.

Russia's next-generation bomber is expect to carry the Kh-555 air-launched cruise missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers, as well as the developing Kh-101/120 cruise missile with a range of more than 2,500 kilometers. Either can carry conventional or nuclear warheads.
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
In spite of those impressive characteristics, the Tu-22 has three major flaws which would likely consign it to become a second Sovremenny-class white elephant.

First, the Tu-22 is highly, highly vulnerable to interception, and it and the Tu-160 are the planes around which the USN has designed its entire anti-air suite. From a strategic standpoint, it's not really worth it to buy the capability your intended adversary has already spent billions building defenses against.

Second, the Tu-22 is not guaranteed to link well with the tightly linked, 21st-century, C4ISR model that the PLAN/PLAAF want to have. This could turn it into a one-off albatross that looks great on paper but is a pain in the ass for field commanders to use.

Third, the Tu-22 will be expensive and will dilute PLAAF defense budgets away from areas which they really should be focusing on, like UCAVs, 5th-gen avionics, AWACS, and better engines.

Finally, the capability the Tu-22 provides--1500 mi unrefuelled combat radius at supersonic speeds with 50 tons of standoff ordnance--can be done with a flight of J-20s. But that flight of J-20s has three main advantages over a Tu-22:

1) Survivability -- the J-20 is a stealth airframe with radar-reduction and much better maneuverability. It will be much better at punching through an F/A-18 CAP than a Tu-22M3 would.
2) Versatility -- those same J-20s that fly out on a shipping hunt can be re-armed for air superiority missions on the next sortie. The Tu-22 can't.
3) Infinitely better C4ISR -- the J-20 can link with home base, friendly AWACS, and surface ships in a much better fashion than the Tu-22 thanks to its indigenous software systems.

In many ways, the fact that CAC is building the J-20 means China doesn't need the Backfire. Now, the Blackjack, with its 8000 mile range, is another story, but I highly, highly, highly doubt Russia would ever sell one of them.

J-20 has small weapons bays, it won`t carry cruise missiles, Tu-22M can carry cruise missiles letting it fire them at 1600km of the target and in the future 2000km, it flies at Mach 2.

So they are two different aircraft.

Su-34 is a more capable aircraft as bomber.

J-20 like F-35 is limited to JDAMs or small surface to air missiles.

J-20 is a tactical multirole aircraft.

Tu-22M a theater of operations supersonic bomber.

Tu-22 can carry 22 tonnes of cruise missilles.

J-20 at the most will carry 3-4 tonnes of weapons and no more than 1 tonne internally like F-35

B-2 is superior to Tu-22M3 but Tu-16 is not

watch the F-22 weapons bays, can you fit a The AGM-158 JASSM inside those bays?

[video=youtube;NXHPJukCeuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHPJukCeuY[/video]

see the size

[video=youtube;r-3wFRZ7VHc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3wFRZ7VHc[/video]
 
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supercat

Major
It'd make more sense to launch an AShBM mounted on the fuselage (like the Kh-22 would have been carried).

If you want to mount a ballistic missile on an aircraft, use Y-20. Even ICBM can be mounted and drop-launched from Y-20.

As for Tu-22s, why won't China build a B2-style stealth bomber instead? The chance of China buying Tu-22 production line is next to none.
The chance that China will build a stealth bomber is much higher.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Russia is upgrading their Tu-22Ms

About 30 Tu-22M3 strategic bombers from Russia's Long Range Aviation fleet will be modernized by 2020, Russian Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday
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Hmmm, well they have about 160 of these aircraft either in service or in reserve and they are only upgrading 30 of them over the next 8 years?

Clearly this is only a stop gap until they produce a new aircraft or other new capabilities.

My guess is a part of that is their Pak DA project (as spoken of here in the posts below).
 

Skywatcher

Captain
PAK DA at 100 to 120 tons MTOW... sounds more like a Tu-22M weight class rather than a Tu-160 weigh class bomber.

Of course, 24 tons is nothing to sneeze at, especially in the age of PGMs.
 
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