China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

b787

Captain
I generally agree. Which is why I was surprised to see that line of thinking from b787 and the level of threat he believes hosting this station will attribute to Argentina -- specifically an attack from the US as a result. On that score, the station is in place, so time will tell.

Times are changing and the cost of unilateral strike against a third-party nation like Argentina to get at a benign (i.e. non-offensive) Chinese space facility is high, diplomatically and otherwise. Never mind the developing demographics of the US with its growing Latin American population and those implications, present and future.

Anyhow, I was not going to pursue further as it's b787's world view and I'm not here to change it, just share my own perspective. Thought I owed you a reply though since you quoted my post. Cheers.
Perhaps i was not very clear about my line of thought, the station will be there without problem, in peace time, no one will attack it, as long as Argentina is not at war, the station will be okay, even if there is a war, it will not be attacked as long China is not involved directly.

What i said is Western countries will try to convince Argentina of the foolishness of doing it, first by diplomatic means, later by Argentina`s own political opposition and third by economic means.

Western powers will simply try to convince Argentina that China has to leave, they know it can be achieved by the political opposition to a Government friendly to China, they know it can be done if the Chinese commerce with Argentina affects negatively the economy of the South American country.


In Mexico they did it, the Mexican president Enrique Peña Nieto did grant to a Chinese firm a contract to build a high speed train in mexico, however by showing the corruption of the President the project was cancelled, it was the Mexican opposition that costed to China the project, and believe me this is part of the current realities.

If the Tracking station poses a military threat then the need to nullify it will be more urgent, bt they will use political and peacefull means as long as there is not war
 

broadsword

Brigadier
In Mexico they did it, the Mexican president Enrique Peña Nieto did grant to a Chinese firm a contract to build a high speed train in mexico, however by showing the corruption of the President the project was cancelled, it was the Mexican opposition that costed to China the project, and believe me this is part of the current realities.

Are you suggesting that the contract was cancelled due to opposition from other nations or within Mexico for political reasons against China? That the corruption was only an excuse?
 

b787

Captain
Are you suggesting that the contract was cancelled due to opposition from other nations or within Mexico for political reasons against China? That the corruption was only an excuse?
it was

see

The Mexican president is under pressure to explain why a company associated with the country’s first high-speed rail contract owns a mansion apparently designed for the presidential family and described by his actor wife as the “real family home” in a society magazine interview.

The revelations, published on Sunday on the website of leading Mexican journalist Carmen Aristegui, have opened a new front against Enrique Peña Nieto, who is already struggling to deal with the fallout from the disappearance and probable massacre of 43 students six weeks ago. Many observers claim the government’s long-standing tolerance of corruption is part of the background to the current security crisis.

The modernist white mansion boasts seven bedrooms, marble floors, a spa, a lift, an underground garage and mood lighting that can bathe the building in pink, violet and orange. Located in an exclusive neighbourhood of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
City, it has been valued it at about $7m (£4.4m).

The crux of the investigation rests on the discovery that the mansion is registered under the name of Ingenieria Inmobiliaria del Centro, a company owned by Grupo Higa, which is also associated with the Chinese-led consortium that was awarded a $3.7bn contract on 3 November to build a high-speed rail link between the capital and the city of Queretaro.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
try to just see who did benefit from that decision
Perceptions that Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto rewarded friends with a share of a $4.3 billion high-speed rail contract won by a Chinese-led consortium led this week to a stunning decision by Mexico to scrap the deal and start over with new bidding.


Perceptions that Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto rewarded friends with a share of a $4.3 billion high-speed rail contract won by a Chinese-led consortium led this week to a stunning decision by Mexico to scrap the deal and start over with new bidding.

The move rocked Mexico’s relations with China on the eve of a visit there by Peña Nieto and caused the stock price of China Railway Construction to plunge 5.8 percent Friday on the Hong Kong stock exchange. Peña Nieto is to leave Sunday for Beijing for a summit of Asian Pacific leaders and a state visit with his Chinese counterpart. He will then travel on to Australia for a G20 summit of global economic powers.

State-owned China Railway Construction, the world’s largest construction contractor, had allied with four Mexican companies, three of which are owned by friends or allies of Peña Nieto, for the award to build a 150-mile high-speed rail link between Mexico City and Querétaro, a booming center of the aerospace industry.

The China Railway consortium was the sole bidder. Other potential bidders complained of corruption and said the time allowed to prepare bids was far too short.

Secretary of Transportation and Communications Gerardo Ruiz Esparza announced the decision to cancel the contract late Thursday night. On Friday, he told Mexico’s Radio Fórmula that the bidding was done legally but that Peña Nieto “is very sensitive right now that there be doubts or questions about the government of China’s first investment in Mexico.”

Opposition senators had lambasted Ruiz Esparza hours before the cancellation for what they said was a bidding process that appeared designed to discourage competitors and favor the Chinese-led consortium.

“It appears that a multimillion-(dollar) project has been rigged,” Sen. Javier Corral, of the center-right National Action Party, told Ruiz Esparza during a Senate hearing Thursday. He charged that the consortium had access to information that “placed all other bidders at a disadvantage” and they were “forced to withdraw from the competition.”

One of the companies in the consortium, Constructora Teya, is headed by a Peña Nieto friend, Juan Armando Hinojosa, and is part of a business concern, Grupo Higa, that won hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bids when Peña Nieto was governor of the state of Mexico from 2005 to 2011. A second company, Prodemex, also won major deals in the state during Peña Nieto‘s governorship.

A third company, Constructora y Edificadora GIA+A, belongs to another prominent Mexican, Hipólito Gerard, the brother-in-law of former President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. Many Mexicans believe Salinas is a patron of Peña Nieto.

Corral told Ruiz Esparza that the government faces potential social upheaval over the appearance of giving contracts “to favor friends or companies close to the ruling party or the president.”

Among the 16 companies that declined to present bids on the high-speed rail project were Japan’s Mitsubishi, France’s Alstom, Canada’s Bombardier and Germany’s Siemens. A banking adviser to another major company, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said the firm received multiple indications that the bid was rigged and decided against going forward.

Some analysts applauded the government for backtracking on the award.

“I think it’s a brave and positive decision,” said Juan Pardines, head of the Mexican Council on Competitiveness, a think tank in the capital.

Pardines noted that Peña Nieto first promised to build the high-speed rail link, which would take up to 27,000 passengers a day once in operation, in his inaugural speech in December 2012. Since then, the government has rushed to bring the project to fruition before Peña Nieto’s term ends in 2018.

“All the bureaucracy was focused on doing the train, no matter what,” Pardines said. “A project in which you are investing 50 billion pesos, I think it should not be done in a hurry.”

The high-speed train project is expected to take three and a half years to complete. The rail will take passengers at speeds of about 185 mph and make the trip between the two cities in 58 minutes.

Ruiz Esparza said the bidding process would begin again, probably by the end of November, and this time would remain open for six months.

He said under the terms of the bidding, the Mexican government may need to offer compensation to China Railway Construction for rescinding the bid. He did not specify how much. He said the Chinese concern would be welcome to enter a new bid.


Read more here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Read more here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This a way they are trying to stall the tracking station in Argentina, but in Argentina they have not been sucessful up to this moment
 

broadsword

Brigadier
I can understand that corruption was what undermined the deal as would happen in most countries anyway. You have only shown the corruption part which was already all over the news.

Was there pressure from any party to terminate the rail deal because of political ideology as is being mooted in the context of the tracking station in Argentina?
 

montyp165

Junior Member
Brazil and South Africa are good partners for Argentine military cooperative development, the A-darter and R-darter are good examples of such programs that Argentina could readily jump into to provide modern AAMs. Even India's Kaveri engine, although a cancelled project, could be picked up by FAdeA for development into a viable substitute for the F404 engine if the Argentine air force ever picked up the Gripen fighter.
 

b787

Captain
I can understand that corruption was what ?
In Mexico, as well as in Argentina, there are foreign companies that lobby for Western companies, in Mexico we have Bombardier, they also build trains in Mexico see this news from a few days ago
“Hemos cedido territorio argentino para una base ‘paramilitar’ china, algo inédito”


La explicación sistemática de un ingeniero a un panel de abogados

Runza partió su exposición desde un ámbito conceptual, llevando a la audiencia a repasar conceptos básicos como qué es Seguridad, o qué significa “estar en guerra”, explicando los múltiples usos que un satélite puede tener, y exponiendo a su vez la perspectiva china sobre el tema, su organización militar, sus fines y la manera que tienen de fijarse metas y cumplirlas. “Es muy importante conocer cómo piensa el otro, y eso es algo que Argentina no suele hacer”, dijo.

En ese sentido, sus conclusiones fueron evidentes: el impacto de esta base abarca temas de Seguridad Nacional (por ejemplo, la empresa china que dirigirá la estación, la China Satellite Launch and Tracking Control General (CLTC)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, en el año 2011); y abarca también temas de Seguridad Internacional.

“Gracias a esto, le hemos dado a la base aérea británica en Malvinas un objetivo estratégico OTAN”, explicó Runza, indicando también que una situación similar ocurre con la base aérea de despliegue militar de EEUU en Paraguay.

Sobre la base en sí, el ingeniero remarcó que no todas las guerras son de soldados. En ésta, el escenario de la batalla está en el espacio y en el control de los satélites que operan afuera, muchos de los cuales pueden directamente anular o incomunicar a los equipos enemigos.

“Es una estación de monitoreo, de tracking, y de control, que va a ser dirigida desde Pekín. Lo que pueden es realizar cambios de dirección o de posicionamiento de los satélites chinos. Pero también pueden ser una base de comando y control no solo de satélites, sino de armamento espacial, de lo cual desconocemos qué grado de desarrollo tiene China. Es decir, aquellos misiles que se pueden tirar desde el espacio hacia el espacio: desde un instrumento espacial chino hacia objetivos militares, por ejemplo, norteamericanos. Por eso es que Argentina pasa a ser un objetivo estratégico a bombardear”, explicó.

Qué predice el ingeniero sobre el futuro Argentina-China

Dos cuestiones son importantes de remarcar: la primera, Runza opina que, a menos que Argentina resuelva lo que él llama un grave problema estructural (el no tener una dirección definida ni actuar seriamente en el plano internacional), China seguirá avanzando en Argentina. Neuquén sólo sería un primer paso. Con ello, no sería raro ver quizás en el futuro el establecimiento de alguna base naval china en las costas de Argentina.

Lo segundo, y va a la par de lo primero: Runza piensa que los militares chinos no se van a ir. “Nosotros estamos acostumbrados a no pensar geopolíticamente. Se podrán declarar todas las inconstitucionalidades que quieran, pero los chinos no se van a ir”, descartando desde su perspectiva alguna posibilidad de que
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
en este punto el avance chino en Neuquén.

“Ellos piensan esto como en un gran tablero de ajedrez y cada paso que dan es un paso pensado. Nosotros no”, señaló.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Translation

"We have given Argentine territory for a 'paramilitary' Chinese base, something unprecedented"
With these words the aeronautical engineer Ricardo Adrian Runza, a specialist in defense and security, installation of the Chinese base in Neuquen, to students of the Faculty of Law at the UBA referred.

to Epoch Times has reported since September 2014 on the specific risks of future Chinese space station in Neuquen has military uses, to report directly to the General Armaments Department of the People's Liberation Army, armed military arm of the Chinese Communist regime. In that sense, politicians like US Senator Fernando "Pino" Solanas or specialists like Dr. Alejandro Corbacho expressed concern.



The approach on the subject gives Ricardo Adrian Runza, Argentine aeronautical engineer and specialist in defense and security, enrich the knowledge of this issue. This time, it was in the framework of the conference "The new Chinese paramilitary base in Patagonia Argentina, Impact and possible future implications for the Argentine State", on Wednesday August 26 at the Faculty of Law at the UBA.

"Our politicians 'nationalist' and 'popular' have ceded sovereignty to a foreign power, unprecedented in our history. And this transfer of Argentine sovereign territory was for a 'paramilitary' base. I prefer to call 'paramilitary base' because it is the exact term that should give this Chinese base, as the office carrying out the execution of this work and will have the responsibility to operate charge depends on the Armed Forces of China . Thus the Chinese government usually hides under this stealth technique, his real purpose, "he explained the engineer in dialogue with the Argentine journalist Jorge Lanata months ago.

The systematic explanation of an engineer to a panel of lawyers
Runza started his presentation from a conceptual level, taking the audience to review basic concepts such as what security, or what "being at war", explaining the many uses that a satellite can be, and in turn exposing the Chinese perspective on the subject, its military organization, its goals and the way they set goals and meet them. "It's very important to know how the other thinks, and that is something that Argentina usually do," he said.

In that sense, its conclusions were clear: the impact of this base covers national security issues (for example, the Chinese company that will direct the station, the China Satellite Launch and Tracking Control General (CLTC) received accusations of espionage in Australia, 2011); and also it covers issues of international security.

"With this, we have given to the British air base in Malvinas NATO strategic goal," said Runza, also indicating that a similar situation occurs with the air base US military deployment in Paraguay.

Based itself, the engineer noted that not all wars are soldiers. In this, the scene of the battle is in space and in controlling satellites that operate outside, many of which can directly cancel or equipment incomunicar enemies.

"It is a monitoring station, tracking, and control, to be directed from Beijing. What can it change direction or positioning of Chinese satellites. But they can also be a base not only command and control of satellites, but space weapons, of which know what stage of development is China. That is, those missiles that can shoot from space to space, from a Chinese space instrument to military targets, for example, Americans. So it is that Argentina becomes a strategic bombing target, "he said.

What the engineer of the future predicts Argentina-China
Two issues are important to highlight: the first Runza believes that, unless Argentina resolve what he calls a serious structural problem (not having a definite direction or act seriously on the international level), China will continue to advance in Argentina. Neuquen only be a first step. This would not be unusual to see maybe in the future the establishment of a Chinese naval base on the coast of Argentina.

The second, and goes along the former: Runza think that the Chinese military will not go. "We are used to not think geopolitically. It may declare unconstitutional all they want, but the Chinese are not going to go ", discarding from their perspective a chance that through legal channels to stop at this point the Chinese advance in Neuquen.

"They think of it as a great chessboard and every step you take is a step thought. We do not, "he said.
 
Last edited:

shen

Senior Member
I can understand that corruption was what undermined the deal as would happen in most countries anyway. You have only shown the corruption part which was already all over the news.

Was there pressure from any party to terminate the rail deal because of political ideology as is being mooted in the context of the tracking station in Argentina?

I read in the news recently that the president has been cleared of the corruption charge. But now some people are crying about corruption involved in the clearing of the corruption charge :) As for who benefits, I don't know. Chinese firm was the only company willing to take a risk and enter the market in the first place. Under the current atmosphere, I doubt any foreign firms will want to risk it. The only thing for sure is Mexico won't get a high speed railroad soon. But that's not really a benefit.

That reminds of a joke I saw recently on a youtube video. Back when Kaddafi was still alive, Libya contracted a Chinese firm to build a cement plant. Kaddafi supposedly ask the Chinese manager how he can build it in two years when a French firm told him it will take four years and cost more money. The Chinese manager said "Mr President, I think your country is beautiful, but I'm certain our engineers wouldn't want to stay more than two years here."
 
Last edited:

b787

Captain
I read in the news recently that the president has been cleared of the corruption charge. But now some people are crying about corruption involved in the clearing of the corruption charge :) As for who benefits, I don't know. Chinese firm was the only company willing to take a risk and enter the market in the first place. Under the current atmosphere, I doubt any foreign firms will want to risk it. The only thing for sure is Mexico won't get a high speed railroad soon. But that's not really a benefit.
The president is super corrupt, every one knows that in Mexico, he was cleared of corruption by a judge he appointed him self, will Mexico get the high speed train, well i can i sure you, we will, but i will say the Chinese did win the bidding but remember we are North Americans and as such the government gives preference to North american firms, but it was not the only Chinese company that was affected in Mexico, Dragon mart was another



it was supposed to be a major Chinese foothold for doing business in Latin America, the largest venue for selling Chinese goods in the Western Hemisphere.

The multimillion-dollar Dragon Mart mega-mall would cover nearly 1,400 acres two miles from the Caribbean Sea just south of the posh Cancun resort area and cater to an army of Chinese vendors.

But Mexico has pulled the plug on the project, the second huge endeavor involving Chinese business that the government of President Enrique Peña Nieto has canceled in just under three months.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In the case of Mexico, China has more difficulties, because as a North American nation, we have our economy more linked to the USA, and wall mart is in Mexico well positioned, in Argentina and Brazil, since they are south Americans, usually they have less american economic links.

The base in Neuquen, might remain there for decades, but believe me it will be very important to remain there that China and Argentina have a well developed economic relation in which Argentina has a trade with China that benefits them. otherwise the opposition like in Mexico will ask any excuse to expel them
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I generally agree. Which is why I was surprised to see that line of thinking from b787 and the level of threat he believes hosting this station will attribute to Argentina -- specifically an attack from the US as a result. On that score, the station is in place, so time will tell.

Times are changing and the cost of unilateral strike against a third-party nation like Argentina to get at a benign (i.e. non-offensive) Chinese space facility is high, diplomatically and otherwise. Never mind the developing demographics of the US with its growing Latin American population and those implications, present and future.

Anyhow, I was not going to pursue further as it's b787's world view and I'm not here to change it, just share my own perspective. Thought I owed you a reply though since you quoted my post. Cheers.

I agree complete. Even if it is publicly known that the station is a dual purpose civilian/military use, short of a total war the base would be relatively safe. The monitoring station by it's very nature is a defensive station. It's not a launch complex or a weapons type facility.
 
Top