CH-148 Cyclone Contract in Peril

Pointblank

Senior Member
It seems not all is well with Sikorsky and the Canadian Forces regarding the CH-148. There has been significant movement recently, starting with an independent report that urged that the contract be modified:
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Cyclone helicopter contract revisions urged by report
Independent review advises Ottawa to bend on specs for Sea King replacement

A naval helicopter procurement program described as the worst in Canada's history was doomed from the start but could be made "viable and operationally relevant" if the federal government urgently adopts a new approach, says a confidential new report obtained by CBC News.

The independent evaluation of the multibillion-dollar purchase of 28 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters to replace a 50-year-old fleet of Sea Kings, obtained by CBC News Network's Power & Politics host Evan Solomon, concludes the government can get the problem-plagued program back on track by negotiating with primary supplier Sikorsky to "re-scope" the project's structure, specifications and delivery approach.

"[The] project could be viable and operationally relevant with a new structure and governance model as described in our recommendations," reads the report from Hitachi Consulting.

A summary of the assessment, which was commissioned by Public Works, urges the government to "sacrifice less important requirements in order to deliver relevant capability" to the Royal Canadian Air Force.

It also recommends a review of "lessons learned" to determine if systemic issues exist that could be addressed in order to avoid future boondoggles with major capital acquisition investments.

This was then followed by a report that the military is considering ditching the Cyclone contract altogether and considering an alternative. The RN's AW101's are being cited as a possible replacement as the Navy has sent personnel over to the UK to inspect the RN AW101's and report back on a feasibility:

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Sea Kings' possible replacement familiar to Canadians
PM Jean Chrétien killed the contract for the EH 101, now known as the AW 101, in 1993

The irony won't be lost on military observers in Canada and around the world.

Twenty years after Prime Minister Jean Chrétien cancelled a $5-billion contract to replace Canada's already aging fleet of Sea King helicopters with the British-Italian EH 101, Canadian military officials are kicking the tires of that same helicopter, though it goes by a different name these days.

Now it's called the Merlin Mk 2 AW 101, following the merger of the Italian firm Agusta and British firm Westland, which produced the aircraft co-operatively.

The military is considering the once-rejected craft because the latest candidate to replace the Sea Kings, the Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone, is five years late, and now might not ever make it into the Canadian fleet. That's because contract officials at the Public Works Department are now suggesting the Cyclone contract could be killed altogether.

Sikorsky has so far been unable to accommodate demands for the computers, sensors and weapons that make a military helicopter not just an aircraft, but a combat system.

Then defence minister Peter MacKay has called the deal "the worst debacle in Canadian procurement history."

The irony of the situation is funny if it wasn't so tragic. With the Sea Kings serving just past their 50th birthday, plus hundreds of millions spent on NOT buying helicopters, it appears the situation is going to get a lot worst before it gets better.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Maybe good for NH-90 NFH or MH-60R, but in that event Royal Canadian Navy wait again...
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Maybe good for NH-90 NFH or MH-60R, but in that event Royal Canadian Navy wait again...
Too bad. It would be a very good and capable ASW helo if the Canadians and Sikorsky could make it work out.


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It certainly is not like Sikorsky is new to, or not very capable at building helicopters of all sorts, including very good ASW helos.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Too bad. It would be a very good and capable ASW helo if the Canadians and Sikorsky could make it work out.


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It certainly is not like Sikorsky is new to, or not very capable at building helicopters of all sorts, including very good ASW helos.

most military project debacles due to things like scope creep, cost overruns, delays, interface and compatibility problems etc are due mainly to the pencil pushers and bad project managers and seldom due purely to technical issues or a bad product. You throw a couple of politicians, lawyers and all sorts of middlemen in there wanting to get their fair share of the cut it's a wonder how any procurement gets done at all!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
most military project debacles due to things like scope creep, cost overruns, delays, interface and compatibility problems etc are due mainly to the pencil pushers and bad project managers and seldom due purely to technical issues or a bad product. You throw a couple of politicians, lawyers and all sorts of middlemen in there wanting to get their fair share of the cut it's a wonder how any procurement gets done at all!
Amen. Been there. Done that.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Another billion or two of our tax dollars going down the drain
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
most military project debacles due to things like scope creep, cost overruns, delays, interface and compatibility problems etc are due mainly to the pencil pushers and bad project managers and seldom due purely to technical issues or a bad product. You throw a couple of politicians, lawyers and all sorts of middlemen in there wanting to get their fair share of the cut it's a wonder how any procurement gets done at all!

The CH-148 problems have been technical in nature, however, the mess that selected the CH-148 was political in nature.

During the bidding process, when the final selection was taking place, it was announced back in 2003 that there were two qualified bidders, the Agusta-Westland EH-101 and the Sikorsky S-92. However, there was actually only one compliant bidder; the EH-101. The S-92 was evaluated by the Project Office evaluators to be non-compliant with a number of the key requirements but was given a "pass" through political pressure. If not for this "pass", the only bidder to advance to the RFP stage would have been the politically dreadful EH-101.

Everyone will recall that MHP was a "lowest cost compliant" competition. The Sikorsky bid was the lowest cost of the two... so to guarantee an outcome, the solution Sikorsky proposed was merely pencil whipped as "compliant" but it remains to this day quite otherwise. The fact that to this day, the Cyclone does not/cannot meet many of the key minimum performance requirements of the original contract and. for these and other reasons, cannot be certified as being airworthy for anything more than daytime, fair weather, over land operations at best. That means the Cyclone as it is, cannot be used for flight training and the operational roles for which it was acquired. There are very serious basic airworthiness and flight safety concerns surrounding the Cyclone and the government is right in their attitude with Sikorsky that they cannot accept the aircraft 'as is', even at an interim basis, and that's not even considering issues with the mission systems.

For all of the talk about the requirements changing, realistically, the basic requirements haven't changed since 2004. What has changed was that requirements were adjusted in RESPONSE to various technical issues or failures on part of Sikorsky.

Judging from the operational concept that the RCN prefers, there is of course only one off the shelf helicopter that would meet requirements: the AW101 in the Royal Navy's Merlin HM2 configuration. We need a capable, multirole, varied sensors aircraft that operate independently of the ship that launched the helicopter. The British and the Canadians practice this operational concept for their anti-submarine helicopters. The MH-60R is a close alternative, but it's much smaller and at its limits with potential growth, plus it would require significant changes to the operational concept that the RCN practices. The NH-90 isn't even flying or operational as a naval helicopter so its out of contention.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The CH-148 problems have been technical in nature, however, the mess that selected the CH-148 was political in nature.

During the bidding process, when the final selection was taking place, it was announced back in 2003 that there were two qualified bidders, the Agusta-Westland EH-101 and the Sikorsky S-92. However, there was actually only one compliant bidder; the EH-101. The S-92 was evaluated by the Project Office evaluators to be non-compliant with a number of the key requirements but was given a "pass" through political pressure.
Can you link to official reports indicating that such a "pass" was given? Or is this the press or the opinion of people pitted against the Sikorsky award and finding reasons for it to be negated?

Everyone will recall that MHP was a "lowest cost compliant" competition. The Sikorsky bid was the lowest cost of the two... so to guarantee an outcome, the solution Sikorsky proposed was merely pencil whipped as "compliant" but it remains to this day quite otherwise. The fact that to this day, the Cyclone does not/cannot meet many of the key minimum performance requirements of the original contract and. for these and other reasons, cannot be certified as being airworthy for anything more than daytime, fair weather, over land operations at best.
.Again, do you have a link to support such an allegation from an official source, either in the project office for the Canadian military or from the defence ministry?

Not knowing or seeing the specific requirements specification, I cannot personally say myself.

But, I do find it difficult to believe that any helicopter produced by Sikorsky would end up as you say:

<I>"...cannot be certified as being airworthy for anything more than daytime, fair weather, over land operations at best."{/I}

The design itself is based on a civilian helicopter that operates in many weather conditions and over land and sea. So that does not jive with what you are saying about it being able to operate only in fair weather over land at best.

Sikorsky has unbelievable good experience in developing all-weather, ASW naval helicopters...some of the best in the world.

I have to believe that there is more to it than that.

For all of the talk about the requirements changing, realistically, the basic requirements haven't changed since 2004. What has changed was that requirements were adjusted in RESPONSE to various technical issues or failures on part of Sikorsky.
Such changes are not at all uncommon in a project like this, particularly with the span it has. Such changes can be interpreted by the losing party to mean that things are being made easier for the winner...but that is universally almost never the case.

We need a capable, multirole, varied sensors aircraft that operate independently of the ship that launched the helicopter. The British and the Canadians practice this operational concept for their anti-submarine helicopters.
Agreed that that is precisely what the Canadian Military needs.

I also believe that Sikorsky is perfectly capable of providing it, and that they have a good track record with other programs of doing so.

As I said with my original post, it will be a shame if the Canadian government and Sikorsky cannot work it out, after all of this effort and cost, to make that happen with the Cyclone.

I personally believe the platform itself is capable of it...whether they will ever get there with it is the question...and it appears at this point that public and a lot of political perceptiona and sentiment has been influenced against it.
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The CBC reports that Sikorsky simply cannot produce an helicopter that meets the requirements. I'm not sure I'm confusing things with another helicopter, but awhile ago I heard that Sikorsky's helicopter can't meet the requirement of continues running engine without engine oil or gear oil for certain amount of time.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The CBC reports that Sikorsky simply cannot produce an helicopter that meets the requirements. I'm not sure I'm confusing things with another helicopter, but awhile ago I heard that Sikorsky's helicopter can't meet the requirement of continues running engine without engine oil or gear oil for certain amount of time.
Well, as I said, Sikorsky is VERY experienced in producing naval helicopters to meet the naval requirements of numerous countries around the world. Heavy life, mdeium life, and light lift.

The venerable Sea Kings were built by Sikorsky and were in operation as ASW helicopters (and many other roles) for almost six decades (and are still in use in several countries today) and used in 14 nations.

The Sikorsky SeaHawk helicopters are currently the most capable and widey used medium lift ASW helicopters available. There are about 800 of them in service in 12 different countries, and they have been continuously upgraded and new variants built over the last 25 years. They are expected to serve in their various ASW, SAR, ASuW, etc. roles through the 2030s.

The over 500 Sea Stallion and Super Stallion helicopters are from Sikorsky. Heavy-lift, long range helicopters used for naval/marine air assault, mine hunting, etc. They are used by 6 different countries.

The S-92 itself (which is the non-naval variant of the Cyclone) currently serves in 10 countries (including Canada) in either governmental/military (non-naval roles) or as commercial aircraft.

The idea that Sikorsky cannot porvide any aircraft that could meet the Canadian naval needs, or one that runs out of oil oil and overheats within the required range of the aircraft, is just not credible or belivable to me. IMHO, there's mor eto it than that. Perhaps there are very special requirements and costing issues, or new developmental issues that Sikorsky is having difficulties with. No doubt that there ar epolitical and turf war issues as well between agencies of government and groups within the military...there almost always are. DDespite any of this, Sikorsky is one of the primere naval helicopter builders on the planet.

So, again, to me, it will be a shame if Canada and Sikorsky cannot come to terms after all of this time and money...but it seems possible that they may not. Such is life.
 
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