Brother of Ling Jihua Reveals China's nuclear launch code and top secrets to US

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
To be clear, what original question do you wish me to address, vis-a-vis your post quoted here:

1. You: "US is a melting pot, China should follow suit".
2. I replied: "China is already a melting pot".
3. You answered it by quoting me. To which, I didn't really understand whether you were rejecting my notion 2.
4. So I assumed you agreed with me.
5. You replied as "disagree" by stating "China is not a melting pot in the sense of US." WITHOUT further explaining why.

My wish is in general, I always expect logics and reasoning, presenting facts than just an assertion or rejection regardless agreeing or not. That is the reason we are here, isn't it? If you don't agree with me but neither want to continue the debate, that is fine with me, but then I think ignoring my post is better than just assertion.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I guess China can just ignore the non-melting pot issues since you just have to look at the Presidential debate and the intolerance of others there. Then China can claim to be a melting pot.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Blackstone

Remember that China is as old as the Roman Empire in Europe.

Plus China has also expanded from a core (like the Romans) to encompass all the territories that is does today.

So the various Chinese dynasties have done this over the past 2 millenia through a combination of colonisation, conquest and assimilation of the existing peoples. Examples include the matriarchal hill tribes or the people who are lives their entire lives on a boat from birth to death or the middle eastern traders in the Muslim province of Ningxia.

So imagine if the Roman Empire was still around today, and comprised the peoples of Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, France, Spain, Italy, UK, Greece, muslim Albania, etc etc

And that those people now all spoke a single language at school and at the workplace, and are proud to call themselves 'European citizens'

So now all these people travel, study and work all over China - and that is the Chinese equivalent of the melting pot.
 
Yes, it takes two to tango, problem is minorities in Tibet and Xinjing don't want to be part of the PRC, and given the choice both would most likely vote to leave.

Says "exile" or "rights" groups sponsored by foreign governments. Tough to independently verify one way or the other but the silent majority probably just wants a reasonably happy, prosperous, and free life just like everywhere else and the PRC appears to be trying to deliver.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Blackstone

Plus the Tibetans and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang simply do not have the numbers or organisation to get anywhere near a civil war situation.

There are less than 20million of them, mostly in the sparsely populated areas of Xinjiang and Tibet.

China can and has flooded the area with security forces, and outside support must traverse long distances through harsh desert/mountain terrain. The security forces also keep a very close eye on what is happening and have a lot of powers which they can and do use if necessary. Plus official ideology is that minorities are equal, and the authorities are trying to nurture and support a wealthy middle-class minority that values stability instead of violence.

So the worst case is a police or anti-terrorist action, and the past experiences from elsewhere would indicate that the Chinese state would win.

And because everyone knows this, it's not likely to happen.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Blackstone

Remember that China is as old as the Roman Empire in Europe.

Plus China has also expanded from a core (like the Romans) to encompass all the territories that is does today.

So the various Chinese dynasties have done this over the past 2 millenia through a combination of colonisation, conquest and assimilation of the existing peoples. Examples include the matriarchal hill tribes or the people who are lives their entire lives on a boat from birth to death or the middle eastern traders in the Muslim province of Ningxia.

So imagine if the Roman Empire was still around today, and comprised the peoples of Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, France, Spain, Italy, UK, Greece, muslim Albania, etc etc

And that those people now all spoke a single language at school and at the workplace, and are proud to call themselves 'European citizens'

So now all these people travel, study and work all over China - and that is the Chinese equivalent of the melting pot.
well said.
Plus that the various Chinese dynasties include dynasties that were found by people who were not "Chinese" at that time (Xianbei, Xiongnu and Khitan etc) who actively assimilate themselves into Chinese. The Mongol Emperors of Ghengis Khan's decent were deemed to be too "Chinese" after they fled Beijing by Mongols who stayed in Mongolia. In Roman analogue, these "non-Chinese" emperors are just like the Eastern Roman Emperors of Greek decent, Constantine the great is a good example.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
How many countries can claim to be a melting pot? Even the model of so-called melting pots, the US, is having tolerance issues as highlighted in the Presidential race. Of course it's the arrogance that everyone wants to be exactly like the US therefore why they think they can dictate how to be a melting pot even though there's no international law that says countries have to be melting pots. Europe has lots of ethnicities living there but then they have a terrorist problem where they're made up mostly of minorities that feel disenfranchised from the mainstream. If that's a melting pot then China is a melting pot. Is Japan a melting pot? Is Taiwan a melting pot? But somehow it's a problem for China not being a melting. Let's declare how China doesn't eats waffles and bacon for breakfast in the morning as a problem. Therefore the world must force China to eat waffles and bacon every morning. German Chancellor Merkel made a statement that multi-culturalism is a failure. Some in the US say it's a failure. Meaning there's no melting pot. So what's being bragged about again?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Short answer is yes, a resounding yes. The ultimate test of the system is whether it works, in the longer term, for the collective good of the people and society.

Do you believe the American has the right to determine who governs them and how their govern? Hillary or Trump or a few others who are now running? Are they all the choices I can cast my vote on? Can you determine how they govern or how Obama governs once they're elected? If you're thinking through, you will start to realize how delusional that you think they can determine how the leaders are selected or how they govern. Sure in theory they may have the right (actually not even in theory, just think about all the voting schemes out there), in reality, people often find them powerless in an electoral vote system. In the vast majority of the developing countries, it could even get worse.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not picking on the US or even assailing its system. It's incredibly difficult to govern a country of continent size with hundreds of million people. America has been among the more successful representative democracies in the world despite its various weakness. I'm just using it as an example.

This is an old subject, and it would be off topic if we dwell on it too much. All I want you is to think more broadly and from different perspectives, and don't automatically assume you're on a moral high round and have won all the arguments just because you utter the word "vote" or "freedom/democracy."

I recommend you, or whoever interested in the subject, read the political scientist Francis Fukuyama's latest books:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Francis Fukuyama is a well-known American political scientist, once studied under the late Samuel Huntington of "Clash of Civilizations" fame. Fukuyama's thinking on different political systems has certainly evolved from "
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
" that he published and became famed for immediately after the end of Cold War. He expounds on the strengths and weaknesses of both American and Chinese political systems, and their origins. The Chinese system has a lot of resilience and continues to evolve, and in some ways it continues its long tradition of central governance with obviously many modern adaptations. I'll leave it at that.

By the way, My Fukuyama was invited to China for a discussion with Wang Qishan last April on the very subject. Xi Jinping also invited him for a private conversation (probably based on the recommendation from Mr. Wang) last November when he was in Beijing again.
Dude, I'm sanguine on social and political problems in Western democracies, and made similar posts on Fukuyama's recent writings on political order decay. I'm also sanguine on Emperor Xi and the Red Dynasty. I call them as I see them, good and bad, unlike the fanbois around here.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
1. You: "US is a melting pot, China should follow suit".
2. I replied: "China is already a melting pot".
3. You answered it by quoting me. To which, I didn't really understand whether you were rejecting my notion 2.
4. So I assumed you agreed with me.
5. You replied as "disagree" by stating "China is not a melting pot in the sense of US." WITHOUT further explaining why.

My wish is in general, I always expect logics and reasoning, presenting facts than just an assertion or rejection regardless agreeing or not. That is the reason we are here, isn't it? If you don't agree with me but neither want to continue the debate, that is fine with me, but then I think ignoring my post is better than just assertion.
I see the problem; you're not versed in the US melting pot concept that's very different from China's experience. America was and is an immigrant-based society, and the melting pot concept evolved to assimilate people from different cultures and ethnicity into a functioning society. China's experience is assimilating invaders with its bulk and the attraction of its culture/civilization. Large numbers of people from all over the world still want to immigrate to the US, and hundreds of thousands become new citizens every year, but the same can't be said for China.

Here's a good description of US melting pot-
The melting pot is a metaphor for a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
society becoming more
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the different elements "melting together" into a harmonious whole with a common culture. It is particularly used to describe the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The melting-together metaphor was in use by the 1780s.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The exact term "melting pot" came into general usage in the United States after it was used as a metaphor describing a fusion of nationalities, cultures and ethnicities in the 1908
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
 
Top