Brazil jumps on PAK FA
- Thread starter Vlad Plasmius
- Start date
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
An update and more information on Russia's PAK FA and its work with Brazil and India:
-----------Start of article--------------------
Brazil, Russia Sign Agreement on Fighter Jets, Space Launch Vehicles
Posted on: Thursday, 17 April 2008, 12:00 CDT
Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.
Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.
While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.
In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.
"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.
Satellite Launch Vehicle
Russia is already cooperating with Brazil in the space field. A group of experts is in Sao Jose dos Campos acting as advisers on the Satellite Launch Vehicle (VLS) programme. The Russians are participating in the design of a new first stage, using liquid rather than solid fuel, for the rocket, which has accumulated a series of failures since the first launch attempt in 1997. Our country also has technology transfer programmes with Ukraine in connection with the production of rockets and with France, which intends to produce medium-size helicopters in Minas Gerais and submarines in Rio de Janeiro.
Source: BBC Monitoring Americas
-----------End of Article----------------------
Here is a possible picture of Russia's PAK FA:
If the PAK FA has 3-D thrust and a powerful engine to offset the widely spaced engines, the PAK FA should have at least a good roll rate. The vertical stabilizers and rudders are small, but the whole vertical stabilizer or rudder seems to move completely and the PAK FA might have 3-D thrust. The swept wings make it look fast, too.
I surmise India will help Russia with funding, providing European and American technology (India is friends to both sides!), and providing lots of software assistance and a little hardware help. Brazil will help Russia with funding and acquiring European and American technology (Latin America has weapons from many nations). Russia will do most of the funding, research, and development.
Any predictions on the capabilities of the PAK FA?
-----------Start of article--------------------
Brazil, Russia Sign Agreement on Fighter Jets, Space Launch Vehicles
Posted on: Thursday, 17 April 2008, 12:00 CDT
Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.
Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.
While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.
In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.
"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.
Satellite Launch Vehicle
Russia is already cooperating with Brazil in the space field. A group of experts is in Sao Jose dos Campos acting as advisers on the Satellite Launch Vehicle (VLS) programme. The Russians are participating in the design of a new first stage, using liquid rather than solid fuel, for the rocket, which has accumulated a series of failures since the first launch attempt in 1997. Our country also has technology transfer programmes with Ukraine in connection with the production of rockets and with France, which intends to produce medium-size helicopters in Minas Gerais and submarines in Rio de Janeiro.
Source: BBC Monitoring Americas
-----------End of Article----------------------
Here is a possible picture of Russia's PAK FA:
If the PAK FA has 3-D thrust and a powerful engine to offset the widely spaced engines, the PAK FA should have at least a good roll rate. The vertical stabilizers and rudders are small, but the whole vertical stabilizer or rudder seems to move completely and the PAK FA might have 3-D thrust. The swept wings make it look fast, too.
I surmise India will help Russia with funding, providing European and American technology (India is friends to both sides!), and providing lots of software assistance and a little hardware help. Brazil will help Russia with funding and acquiring European and American technology (Latin America has weapons from many nations). Russia will do most of the funding, research, and development.
Any predictions on the capabilities of the PAK FA?
Last edited:
SteelBird
Colonel
Assuming the above pix will be the PAK-FA prototype. The square intake and the nozzle don't look stealthy, and the aircraft has large body and the main wings are small. Hehe... I'm no expert in aerodynamic, I have no comment on this. To conclude, from the appearance this aircraft will be less stealthy than F-22.
Vlad Plasmius
Junior Member
I don't think it's even close to what the PAK FA will look like. It would actually be a step back in stealth from the Su-47 demonstrator created several years ago. It obviously isn't what the final fighter will look like.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
South America is being led by Venezuela and Brazil to form a military alliance or defense council. Their plan is to unify South America so South America can stop bickering with each other and start improving themselves and play a larger role in international relations. Argentina and some South American nations are still bitter over the Falkland War. They have accused the US of meddling in their domestic affairs. They do not want the US to be a member or observer according to their attitude to US Secretary of State Condi Rice.
Russia (and China) is willing to help them develop their military, economy, and political system.
As a result, Russia and Brazil are going to work together on the PAK FA and many other projects. I would not be surprised if Venezuela and a few more South American nations chipped in some support. If South America gets its act together (a VERY BIG if), a South American alliance could build a formidable military alliance, economic zone, and political body.
Russia (and China) is willing to help them develop their military, economy, and political system.
As a result, Russia and Brazil are going to work together on the PAK FA and many other projects. I would not be surprised if Venezuela and a few more South American nations chipped in some support. If South America gets its act together (a VERY BIG if), a South American alliance could build a formidable military alliance, economic zone, and political body.
mehdi
Junior Member
I understand their need to setup a regional defense council so that South America can settle its own issues rather than let other world countries poke their nose into their personal affairs. That's ok but on the other hand to join in a project of a 5th generation Fighter Plane i.e. PAK FA is completely out of proportion. Does Brazil have enemies that have superior aircraft to them, your answer doesn't reflect the truth and only points to the fact that this information is non-conclusive, I will try to contact some people in Brazil to inquire about these new developments. Till then we can only speculate.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
Hey Mehdi, you raised a good question: Why would Brazil want an advanced fighter like the PAK FA (assuming this is the reason Brazil is helping Russia create the PAK FA)?
If you ever find the answer, please let me know here.
My guess is that South America wants to become a bigger player in world affairs and want to defend their internal affairs from foreign influence. Venezuela and some South American nations are very skeptical of American influence in Latin America, especially America's developing alliance with Colombia. Thus, Brazil (the largest and resource-rich nation in South America) is helping the Russians develop the PAK FA and will acquire it later on.
We know Venezuela (led by Chavez) is trying to acquire a capable military to gain regional respect, international respect, and to TRY to make America think twice about bullying Venezuela.
If you ever find the answer, please let me know here.
My guess is that South America wants to become a bigger player in world affairs and want to defend their internal affairs from foreign influence. Venezuela and some South American nations are very skeptical of American influence in Latin America, especially America's developing alliance with Colombia. Thus, Brazil (the largest and resource-rich nation in South America) is helping the Russians develop the PAK FA and will acquire it later on.
We know Venezuela (led by Chavez) is trying to acquire a capable military to gain regional respect, international respect, and to TRY to make America think twice about bullying Venezuela.
Venezuela's recent arms purchases are triggering an arms spending spree in South America; the Columbians purchased Kifrs from Israel, Peru and perhaps Chile have expressed interest in purchasing weapons, not necessarily fighter aircraft though. Brazil's air force is becoming obsolete anyway, 12 Mirage 2000s aren't going to cut it for a nation that size. Brazil is looking to become the leader of the continent (whether they want to share that role with Venezuela simply to indulge Venezuela' national Napoleon-complex is questionable), so they need to clearly be militarily dominant.
Rejecting the F-35 in favor of the PAK-FA is a huge mistake for Brazil. The PAK-FA might be a better plane, but the F-35 will be available in one or two years, not 6 or more (my estimate) like the PAK-FA. Most importantly, the Brazilian Navy needs replacements for its A-4s on the Sao Paulo. The F-35C with VTOL capability, could fill that role and make the Sao Paulo a viable carrier for years to come, as well as work of a smaller replacement carrier in the future. The PAK-FA can do none of that, and rejecting the F-35 will make it harder for the Brazilian Navy to get its hands on a replacement air wing.
Last edited:
Vlad Plasmius
Junior Member
I think Russia would definitely create a carrier-borne version of the PAK FA. On this note, though, perhaps if this relationship between Brazil and Russia is a sign of things to come once Russia builds its next class of carriers Brazil could get the Kuznetsov.
I wonder what this all means for the F-X program in Brazil.