Boeing's Airborne Laser Defense Fails the Test

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Going back to were such a weapon system might actually be used. I do think it would be especually places like Iran or NK.
There's no use to try to defend against large scale ICBM attacks out of Russia or China, the defence against these is having your on ICBMs wich will strike.
On the other hand, countries like the aforementioned with a smaller arsenal across the board represend a situation were hostile defenses might be degraded to a point were at least a window of opportunity exists for the ABL to move in. And if it only takes down two or three out of ten or twenty, that's two or three less left over for other systems.
And I don't believe that heat-resistent tiles are really an option here because of weight. The Shuttle has these because it's necessary, like in essential for the crews life. But putting those tiles all around a MRBM would degrate it's performance considerably.
In the end, I believe NCADE will be a much more efficient way to achieve the same goal, but the ABL is at least a great science work that will pay off later.

However I do question the credibility of the aircraft armed laser system. First off, these aircraft as of today is quite big and it would take a longer time to get them prep and ready to operate. Unless you already know that a ballistic missile is being launched or are about to be launched, then it would be quite useless... because by the time the aircraft took off and reach the area that the ballistic missile was to strike, it will be too late to actually knock it off.

And unless you have the intel to launch an first strike by getting these systems into the airspace of opponents, and knock off the missiles just as they launch, it will also be useless.

But not to say that the developement of these system are totally useless though. By perfecting this system and miniaturise it to a point that it could be fit on fighters and bombers that can be launched from the carriers, this system could proof to be very useful against ASBM system and since fighters could be launched at a much faster time comparing to the large passenger planes and can get to affected area much faster, it can be utilised as true Anti-ballistic missile defences and umbrella against missiles launched at the mainland.
 

Martian

Senior Member
Solar-powered laser satellite is infeasible

solarintensityinextrate.jpg

Solar intensity in extraterrestrial space is 1367 W/m2.

The current world record for "sunlight to electricity conversion is 24.2%" for silicon technology.

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"SunPower Sets Solar Cell Efficiency Record at 24.2%
June 24, 2010

California, United States -- SunPower Corp. has produced a full-scale solar cell with a sunlight to electricity conversion efficiency of 24.2 percent at its manufacturing plant in the Philippines. This is a new world record for large area silicon wafers, and has been confirmed by the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL)."

Using the theoretical maximum available energy from the Sun, we will calculate the minimum area necessary for a Mega-watt class solar-powered laser.

"The World Radiation Centre's 1985 standard extraterrestrial level for solar irradiance is 1367 W/m2.[1]" (see
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).

The area necessary to collect sufficient solar energy to power a Mega-watt class laser is:

Area of solar energy collection = (1 Megawatt / 1367 W/m2) / 24.2% efficiency

Area of solar energy collection = 3,023 m2.

There is a massive cloud of space debris in low earth orbit. It is not realistic to erect a 3,023 square meter solar collector to power one space-based laser. You may reduce the square meter requirement by using batteries, but the scope of the engineering problem is still mind-boggling.

For now, we will ignore the transmission losses from the solar collectors to the weapon's unit. Also, we will ignore the energy losses as the solar-derived energy is converted into a laser beam. The actual number of solar collectors would have to be far larger because of expected failure in a percentage of the solar panels.

Look at it this way. They've spent billions of dollars working on the ABL since 1996. After 14 years, they can only shoot down a mock target under ideal conditions from 50 miles away. There have been two consecutive failed tests and one of them was at a 100-mile range under ideal conditions.

What are the odds that they can successfully erect a 3,023 square meter solar-powered laser satellite in space at -273 °C and maintain a steady beam (while avoiding space junk) for two minutes from 500 km in space on an accelerating ICBM under non-ideal weather conditions while the satellite is traveling at 22,000 miles per hour in a curved trajectory?

What is your contingency plan if China launches her ICBMs at night? Battery technology is currently very limited. Battery-powered electric vehicles have a ridiculously short range. Where do you intend to find the technology for batteries that can store and quickly discharge one Megawatt of power for two minutes?

spacejunknasda02.jpg
 
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Martian

Senior Member
Space shuttle heat tiles are "very lightweight"

And I don't believe that heat-resistent tiles are really an option here because of weight. The Shuttle has these because it's necessary, like in essential for the crews life. But putting those tiles all around a MRBM would degrate it's performance considerably.

Exactly what weight problem are you referring to?

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"We would be looking for things that are much more robust," said Mark J. Shuart, director for structure and materials at NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, during an interview. "Tiles are very lightweight and efficient, but they take a lot of time after a flight for repairs and refurbishing."

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"Re-entry temperatures can reach as high as 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C)!

Obviously, it would not be good for a spacecraft to burn up when it re-enters the atmosphere! Two technologies are used to allow spacecraft to re-enter:

* Ablative technology
* Insulating tile technology

In ablative technology, the surface of the heat shield melts and vaporizes, and in the process, it carries away heat. This is the technology that protected the Apollo spacecraft.

The space shuttles are protected by special silica tiles. Silica (SiO2) is an incredible insulator. It is possible to hold a space shuttle tile by the edge and then heat up the center of the tile with a blow torch. The tile insulates so well that no heat makes it out to the edges. This page discusses the tiles:

Aerobraking tiles are produced from amorphous silica fibers which are pressed and sintered, with the resulting tile having as much as 93% porosity (i.e., very lightweight) and low thermal expansion, low thermal conductivity (e.g., the well known pictures of someone holding a Space Shuttle tile by the corners when the center is red hot), and good thermal shock properties. This process can be readily performed in space when we can produce silica of the required purity.

These tiles keep the heat of re-entry from ever reaching the body of the shuttle."

nstaumtile.jpg

Heating a space shuttle tile with a blow torch shows the incredible insulating properties of this ceramic material. See
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I think we have to keep in mind that technology itself is progressing as time goes by. Remember how awful of a weapon the first firearms were - shortrange, low penetration power, slow loading rate, and low accuracy. Yet in just 200 years it became to predominant weapon in Europe and today it is the predominant weapon in the whole world. Break throughs in solid electronics, a field that I've done research in, is progressing at unthinkable rates and there is no reason why the power source problem, blooming, and beam scattering could be solved in decades or centuries.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
I think we have to keep in mind that technology itself is progressing as time goes by. Remember how awful of a weapon the first firearms were - shortrange, low penetration power, slow loading rate, and low accuracy. Yet in just 200 years it became to predominant weapon in Europe and today it is the predominant weapon in the whole world. Break throughs in solid electronics, a field that I've done research in, is progressing at unthinkable rates and there is no reason why the power source problem, blooming, and beam scattering could be solved in decades or centuries.

Exactly! I agreed with you in very detail in this thread.

And to add on to that, just because of some failure encountered along the way, doesn't actually justified the total condemn of the entire project. If that was the case, then from long ago many of what we saw as great technology today had long been abandon.

It is thoroughly wrong in thinking that something today might seemed irrelevant and inefficient then it is useless. If that was the case, the people should long ago revert back to using bows and arrows rather than develope the firearms.

And remember, in WWI, the fighter aircrafts are extremely crappy and low flying... plus pretty useless in major ground movement. But in WWII, everything changed (how many years were that - 45 years, I think). And now look at the fighters now... they are the dominant weapons in modern war.

Same could be said about lasers whether airborne, ground base or satellite base.

We do not just lump big chunks of scientific terms and feat from existing websites and deduce that something is useless and/or fictional like Martian and refuses to acknowledge that some of his thinking might be flawed. Things change and change quickly... so thinking had to change too so as to match that pace.
 
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xywdx

Junior Member
Insulating material isn't the only thing you have to be concerned about.
Reflective material, rotating missiles, or moving missile are all things to consider, not to mention the whole load of problems mother nature produces.
If you want to reliably shoot down a missile you should prepare a laser at least 10 times the energy required theoretically.
That means if they send out 10 747s to every missile then they will have a respectable chance of shooting down all of them.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Exactly! I agreed with you in very detail in this thread.

And to add on to that, just because of some failure encountered along the way, doesn't actually justified the total condemn of the entire project. If that was the case, then from long ago many of what we saw as great technology today had long been abandon.

It is thoroughly wrong in thinking that something today might seemed irrelevant and inefficient then it is useless. If that was the case, the people should long ago revert back to using bows and arrows rather than develope the firearms.

And remember, in WWI, the fighter aircrafts are extremely crappy and low flying... plus pretty useless in major ground movement. But in WWII, everything changed (how many years were that - 45 years, I think). And now look at the fighters now... they are the dominant weapons in modern war.

Same could be said about lasers whether airborne, ground base or satellite base.

We do not just lump big chunks of scientific terms and feat from existing websites and deduce that something is useless and/or fictional like Martian and refuses to acknowledge that some of his thinking might be flawed. Things change and change quickly... so thinking had to change too so as to match that pace.

Let me quickly pick up on that point by you and Siege.
The primary driver of the dominance over firearms over medieval weapons, was the fact that most bowmen and men at arms required a lifetime of training to acquire the necessary strength and proficiency to be effective fighters.
Musketmen however only required a few months basic training to be effective, which meant that large armies could be raised quickly if a ruler had sufficient cash to make the firearms.
I do not see the current laser weapon as being analogous in any way as it is more expensive and less flexible and harder to build or operate than current weapons.
I suggest that you have to go back to the middle ages and find the very earliest Cannons to find anything close to a suitable analogy.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Let me quickly pick up on that point by you and Siege.
The primary driver of the dominance over firearms over medieval weapons, was the fact that most bowmen and men at arms required a lifetime of training to acquire the necessary strength and proficiency to be effective fighters.
Musketmen however only required a few months basic training to be effective, which meant that large armies could be raised quickly if a ruler had sufficient cash to make the firearms.
I do not see the current laser weapon as being analogous in any way as it is more expensive and less flexible and harder to build or operate than current weapons.
I suggest that you have to go back to the middle ages and find the very earliest Cannons to find anything close to a suitable analogy.

Not just bows and arrows. I also did put in the example of aircraft and its growth from WWI to modern time. In WWI, aircrafts are seriously not that effective and costly. But if developement of such system stopped there because of the ineffectiveness then we would not be seeing F-22 here.

Laser is expensive and less flexible now. And if that is termed as ineffective and should be stopped, then wouldn't that be the same as the aircraft example.

Plus if you look at medival times bows and arrows as compared to firearms, canons, etc. Of course firearms are very much more expensive and difficult to create as compared to bows and arrows. And the process of manufacturing of such weaponries are undoubtly very much longer. As to bowmen using their lifetime to train... well, I am not sure about the western, but chinese crossbowmen doens't need that much time and so even farmers could use them.

When firearms came about, the effectiveness of firearms are much lower as compare to crossbow and I believe they are slower too. So if development stopped there... we would not be seeing M16 and AK-47 now.

We cannot just look at relative cost of laser now as compared to firearm, it is in a different era. Firearms at their first introduction are very, very costly and I believe they are almost comparable to laser nowaday given the GDP and cost of material at that time.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
Re: Airborne laser technology has hit a brick wall

1. The best technology today falls short of the military requirement for a laser that is "twenty to thirty times more powerful." Where in the world are scientists supposed to find a portable energy source with an energy density that is "twenty to thirty times" greater than currently known?

By analogy, imagine scientists being asked to produce a substance "twenty to thirty times" harder than diamonds. Good luck with that. The laws of nature (or physics) impose constraints. The ABL has hit an energy-density brick wall for portable fuel source.

The solution does not lay entirely in power generation. Increasing the currently low level of energy efficiency of lasers is also part of the solution. And that's where a significant part of the R&D is also about.

2. The ABL requires an unimaginably long two-minutes to shoot down one unprotected ballistic missile under ideal conditions. The gigantic Boeing 747 cannot survive battlefield conditions and loiter over enemy airspace for two minutes. With a massive radar and infrared signature, the Boeing 747 is an easy target for advanced mobile surface-to-air missiles.

That's why its a demonstration project. Not an operational defence system. This is the 1st of its type and there are still a lot of technology that are not mature yet. How it turns out in the future is anybody's guess.

3. As I have said before, the ABL is designed for a superpower battle. The U.S. doesn't need an ABL against small fries. This implies a weather problem. China is over 9,600,000 square kilometers in area. As a continent, China has a variety of weather. It is safe to say that there is always inclement weather over significant parts of China. With cloudy, rainy, or snowy weather, is the ABL effective at all under those poor weather conditions?

That is your view.

As I said earlier, the real benefit of a laser weapon is in space, where there is not weather to worry about.

4. A ballistic missile equipped with countermeasures will take forever to destroy with a laser. Conceptually, this is easily understood by placing space shuttle heat tiles on the outside of a ballistic missile. A heat tile is designed to protect a space shuttle from the extreme heat of atmospheric reentry. It remains to be seen whether an ABL can peel away the heat tile protection before it depletes all of the onboard chemical fuel for the laser.

Which is what this ABL project is about. There remains a lot of experimentation to be done, such as it's ability to burn through heat shielding.

Also, the ability to direct the laser upwards (i.e., towards space) could potentially turn it into an ASAT weapon.

5. Each ABL costs "$1 billion to $1.5 billion per aircraft." Let's assume that a DF-31 ICBM costs $50 million each. For comparison, the MX missile was "approximately $70 million" each (see
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). China can build a massive number of DF-31s for the price of one ABL. In other words, the ABL is not a cost-effective platform.

The 1st of type is always the most expensive. Particularly when it is pioneering new technology.

However, this does not mean that future systems will be as expensive, or as big.

Now, regarding the nuclear reactors in satellites, a simple internet search turns up this:

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Nuclear Power In Space
by Yury Zaitsev
Moscow, Russia (RIA Novosti) Aug 15, 2007

Solar energy supplies most of power in spacecraft nowadays. Although the efficiency of solar cells has grown substantially recently, they have reached the limit of their development and can supply electricity only in near-Earth orbits and for satellite-borne equipment. Such large-scale projects as the exploration of the Moon or a manned mission to Mars require nuclear power plants.
These plants are practically independent of sunlight. They can provide power not only for life support and equipment, but also drive electric or nuclear rocket engines.

Estimates made by researchers over recent years show that nuclear power, if used in long-distance space voyages, will save considerable funds and shorten interplanetary journeys. In a Mars mission a nuclear-powered engine would cut flight time almost by two thirds, compared with a jet engine using ordinary chemical fuel. The rim of the solar system could be reached within three, rather than 10, years. Nuclear plants can be used not only as sources of electric power, but also as sources of heat to support life and productive activities at bases beyond Earth.

Russia and the United States have laid a good groundwork for progress in this field. But Russia leads in such key factors as maximum hydrogen temperature and specific thrust impulse. In fact, it is the only country in the world that has a hands-on technology for building space-based nuclear reactor plants.

The U.S. only once tested a nuclear reactor like the Soviet Topaz unit. It was in 1965. The reactor lasted 43 days, although the satellite on which it was installed is still in orbit as part of space junk. Russia has launched about 40 spacecraft with nuclear plants aboard. Most of them were used for spying purposes and, once activated, stayed in low near-Earth orbits for several months on end.

The Topaz-II had a capacity of about 10 kW. This compares with 120 watts that can be collected from one square meter of solar cells, which are the main source of power for space vehicles. Moreover, the farther from the sun, the lower the efficiency of the battery.

Russian engineers have designed a series of conceptual nuclear plants with an initial capacity of 25 kW. A spacecraft incorporating such a plant and meant for Earth observations will mark a new stage in providing information for civilian and military users. Nuclear power plants are more compact than solar ones, making it easier to direct and orient spacecraft especially when increased accuracy is required.

A nuclear power plant is noted for its resistance to environmental impacts and its lower weight-to-capacity ratio. Whatever its capacity, a nuclear plant is always smaller than a solar one.

A plant with a nominal rating of 50 kW or a peak rating of 100 kW or more would help to build multi-purpose satellites of a new generation and radar spacecraft to monitor ground and air targets from geostationary and geosynchronous orbits.

In the past, research and development on space-based nuclear plants was halted both in Russia and in America for considerations of radiation safety. Today nuclear energy is more reliable and is having a rebirth. It is facing ambitious and energy-consuming objectives both in near-Earth orbits and in deep space. Given proper funding, the humankind will not only send a manned mission to Mars soon, but also start using space for commercial purposes by establishing a habitable base on the Moon.

--- EDIT ---

Regarding the ASAT issue, it is certainly an important issue to tackle regarding weaponised satellites. But it seems that ASAT vs satellite is being taken in isolation.

Any weaponised satellite will need to have some form of ASAT defence since there are 2 countries with proven ASAT capabilities. Otherwise, it just becomes a really expensive target. With a laser onboard, it will have some form of defence against ASAT, since the laser is conceivably designed to take out ballistic missiles or other satellites.

There is also the issue of taking out the satellite itself, which constitutes an act of war. Thus, having a weaponised satellite also serves to act as a "trip wire" because it needs to be take out for ballistic missile strikes to get through, thus obliging the attacking country to take it out. This means that ASAT weapons will have to target the weaponised satellites, instead of other satellites (such as GPS, communications, spy, etc).

In essence, it means more targets, which requires more weapons.
 
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