Even if Chiang Kaishek poured Nationalist resources into that battle the outcome may have been the same for the battle. Even if the outcome for the battle was different the overall war with Japan would still have began to Japan's advantage and continue that way for at least a few years. Chiang had painted himself into a corner by picking fights with other Chinese factions with the clear goal of consolidating power under himself, rather than even the Nationalist party which was just a vehicle for him. But to be fair, Chiang was caught between a rock and a hard place given the historical timing of his position in the ongoing political revolution, national re-consolidation, societal modernization, and international weakness of China at the time.
Battle of Shanghai, 1937
- Thread starter Geographer
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Even if Chiang Kaishek poured Nationalist resources into that battle the outcome may have been the same for the battle. Even if the outcome for the battle was different the overall war with Japan would still have began to Japan's advantage and continue that way for at least a few years. Chiang had painted himself into a corner by picking fights with other Chinese factions with the clear goal of consolidating power under himself, rather than even the Nationalist party which was just a vehicle for him. But to be fair, Chiang was caught between a rock and a hard place given the historical timing of his position in the ongoing political revolution, national re-consolidation, societal modernization, and international weakness of China at the time.
solarz
Brigadier
The same reason that prevented them from completely mobilizing in the first place. Japan attacked Shanghai when it was ready, pure and simple. The process of that readiness depended heavily on their campaign in Northern China, where they extracted human and material resources to fuel their war machine. We all hear about the puppet troops, but what's far more significant was the millions of manpower they were able to access to build industry and fortification, something they would never have been able to do without unimpeded access in Northern China.
lightspeed
Junior Member
I put a question mark on the extent of Japanese profits in China then.
it is known that the US and the West sold 80-90% of the Japanese total raw materials and military goods for her war effort in China, in the early years of the war. so what is the percentage of the Japanese raw resources extraction and military goods production in China, compared to the equivalent imports from 1937-1941 ?
Japan from 1937-1941 had the huge human and material resources in China, Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan, and the huge US and the West raw materials and military goods to strongly fuel its war machine. but Japan still cannot defeat this useless KMT armies that were ineffectively and passively resisting the Japanese invasion, according to the KMT’s critics. so the Japanese needed how much resources to defeat China in the war ? something doesn't quite add up here.
solarz
Brigadier
I think you're just talking to yourself now.
First, no one said the NRA was useless. We were talking about Jiang's policies leading up to the invasion of Shanghai. I specifically said that if Jiang had supported the defenders of the Great Wall, the Japanese would not have been able to take northern China.
Second, Japan's control of northern China allowed them to spread their tentacles further, but at no point did I say that it was enough for them to defeat China. Read what I wrote, not what you imagine in your head! I specifically said that had the Japanese invasion of northern China not gone so smoothly, they would never have been able to ravage as much of China as they did.
In fact, I dare speculate that without control of northern China, the Japanese would never have dared launch an invasion of Shanghai!
lightspeed
Junior Member
the “KMT’s critics” was a general term, not directed to you or anyone else. you mentioned the material and industry resources significance of North China. I pointed out that the USA and the West sold the Japanese the majority of their raw materials and military goods.
why ? can you define your control of North China and the extent at what date ? can you elaborate instead of factless one-liner ? I don’t want to misinterpret you.
after the Battle of Beiping-Tianjin, the Battle of Shanghai and the North battles ran concurrently. the Japanese used 20% of its forces in the North and 80% in Shanghai then.
solarz
Brigadier
Do you understand the meaning of "sold"? As in, it's not charity. Where do you think the Japanese got their money?
I think you answered your own question. Do you think Japan could have conducted battle in the North with only 20% of its forces if the North had been properly defended?
lightspeed
Junior Member
it is known that Japan borrowed very heavily from the USA, Britain and the West banks to build up its military power in the 1920s and 1930s. it is really general knowledge that it was never cash in delivery, it was payments by installments ( barter trade or money ) for indefinite years.
in 1938-1939, the USA exported 55% of the Japanese direct war materials and 80% of the military necessities.
source: （《美国通史简编》1979年第614页）
We have already seen in Chapter II how puny are Japan’s raw material resources and how entirely dependent she is on access to British Empire and American markets. The conquest of Manchuria has not substantially altered this. It will be many years before Manchuria is sufficiently developed to remedy Japan’s lack of cereals, meat, fats, wool, hides and timber…..
source: << Fred Utley ( Japan’s Feet of Clay ) >>
Japan needed time and required capital to greatly profit from the resources of the annexed lands of Manchuria and North China. the Japanese needed not less than a generation to fully achieve their goals.
the USA, Britain and the West's money and resources ( on credits to the Japanese ), not the annexed Chinese lands' resources greatly funded the Japanese's invasions of China since the 1931 Mukden Incident.
you should elaborate on your earlier point of “without control of northern China, the Japanese would never have dared launch an invasion of Shanghai!” and reply my earlier question then I can reply you on this.
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solarz
Brigadier
Why did you link to a Baidu answer? How is that authoritative in any way? Besides, the response given clearly says the US did not sell Japan weapons.
What you're describing is simply normal trade, which happens even in times of war. Since Japan was focusing all of its economy toward the war, then obviously a large portion of that trade will go toward the war effort. There is nothing strange about this.
As for your quote, it is quite meaningless. The raw materials cited are for basic necessities *AND* directed specifically toward Japan's needs. Here's the thing, resources from northern China were never used to fulfill the needs of Japanese homeland, but went directly toward fueling the invasion.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the Baidu source citied from this PRC China-USA relations researcher
the large portion of that trade that went toward the war effort was of course normal. my point was it was the Japanese imports, not the resources of the annexed Chinese lands that greatly went toward the war effort.
can you provide some facts and figures ( preferably statistics, not opinions ) to support your idea ( if I’m not mistaken ) that the resources of the annexed North China or Manchuria ( at what year ), directly and greatly funded the Japanese’s invasions of China then.