battle for Changsa,1939

solarz said:

Traditionally, China has always been invaded from the north, because that is where the most militarily defensible positions are. That is why the Great Wall was built there. If you read about the Battle of Shanghai, the Japanese Navy refused to take on Shanghai alone, and the Army had to get involved. That means if Chiang had met the IJA in the north, they would likely not have had enough manpower to take on Shanghai.

Again, I would refer you to the defense of the Great Wall. 300k NRA soldiers defended the Wall for months. Are you going to tell me that Chiang could get 300k men there, but couldn't send them enough bullets throughout months of battle? Forget tanks and howitzers, get those guys enough machine guns and mortars and they would've sent the mere 50k Japanese troops packing. Of course, that would've meant equipping troops that were not particularly loyal to Chiang (the reason they were sent north in the first place), and having the risk of Song Zheyuan going warlord.

You mentioned the Japanese having the advantage in the north because of their mobility and armor. Well yes, if by "north" you mean the Central Plains. That is why the Great Wall is crucial. The ROC was not the first Chinese "dynasty" to face an enemy with superior mobility. The Ming fought Mongols and Manchu, both of whom had a lot more cavalry than the Ming. There's a reason why, when Wu Sangui surrendered the Shanhai pass, the Qing were able to sweep south practically unopposed.

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china was mainly invaded from the north because that's where the threat most often came from, be it the xiongnu, (han) the tujue, (tang) the khitans/mongols,(song) or the manchus; (ming) china's biggest threat always came from the nomadic horsemen of the northern steppes. (a dynamic shared with the romans) this is why the great wall was built where it is.

the manchus took a very long time to take all of china, but beijing is close to the great wall so it was quick to fall. whenever the nomadic horsemen are able to make it into china for long, it's always at a time when china is corrupt and weak due to mismanagement. the japanese invaded when they did for the same reason.

as a result of political insecurity and a fear of internal subversion, chiang made some of the same mistakes (not trusting capable generals, undersupplying distant border troops) that the song and ming did when they were weak and had to ceded territory. he was simply not a very charasmatic leader and did not have very loyal troops. compound that with the fact that 1930s china was politically fractured and that famine was sweeping the land, we can say that the kmt still managed to give the japanese one hell of a fight in alot of places.

i'd say the most defensible parts of china are the mountains of sichuan/hunan/guizhou. these were the treacherous and inhospitable backwaters that the imperial governments never quite had a good handle on and where bandits proliferated. mao was the only one able to eliminate the bandits of west hunan over the centuries and he only did it after the kmt retreated to taiwan.

if you read the romance of the three kingdoms, (三国演义) they talk about the mountain passes of sichuan as a land of ambushes.

pissybits said:

china was mainly invaded from the north because that's where the threat most often came from, be it the xiongnu, (han) the tujue, (tang) the khitans/mongols,(song) or the manchus; (ming) china's biggest threat always came from the nomadic horsemen of the northern steppes. (a dynamic shared with the romans) this is why the great wall was built where it is.

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That's my point. The Great Wall is built where it is because that's where it is most effective at defending the borders of dynastic China.

the manchus took a very long time to take all of china, but beijing is close to the great wall so it was quick to fall. whenever the nomadic horsemen are able to make it into china for long, it's always at a time when china is corrupt and weak due to mismanagement. the japanese invaded when they did for the same reason.

as a result of political insecurity and a fear of internal subversion, chiang made some of the same mistakes (not trusting capable generals, undersupplying distant border troops) that the song and ming did when they were weak and had to ceded territory. he was simply not a very charasmatic leader and did not have very loyal troops. compound that with the fact that 1930s china was politically fractured and that famine was sweeping the land, we can say that the kmt still managed to give the japanese one hell of a fight in alot of places.

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No doubt that the NRA performed valorously under the conditions they were given. However, it's telling that Chiang's fifth encirclement campaign against the Red Army happened a mere 2 months after the loss of the Great Wall. We can clearly see where his priorities lay.

i'd say the most defensible parts of china are the mountains of sichuan/hunan/guizhou. these were the treacherous and inhospitable backwaters that the imperial governments never quite had a good handle on and where bandits proliferated. mao was the only one able to eliminate the bandits of west hunan over the centuries and he only did it after the kmt retreated to taiwan.

if you read the romance of the three kingdoms, (三国演义) they talk about the mountain passes of sichuan as a land of ambushes.

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Sichuan's mountain passes works against it as much as for it. Zhu Geliang suffered grievous defeats trying to invade Wei because he couldn't set up sufficient logistics through those mountains.

Furthermore, the economic heartland of pre-modern China has always been the Central Plains, simply due to the sheer population size it can support. Of course, what makes it an agricultural powerhouse also makes it a vulnerable target. The traditional military wisdom is that he who controls the Central Plains controls China.

pissybits said:

as a result of political insecurity and a fear of internal subversion, chiang made some of the same mistakes (not trusting capable generals, undersupplying distant border troops) that the song and ming did when they were weak and had to ceded territory. he was simply not a very charasmatic leader and did not have very loyal troops. compound that with the fact that 1930s china was politically fractured and that famine was sweeping the land, we can say that the kmt still managed to give the japanese one hell of a fight in alot of places.

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the Chinese Communist Party certainty disrupted the Kuomintang war efforts to a great extent.

from 1937-1941, the CCP proactively attacked the KMT troops and local forces in North & Central China & Jiangnan. according to the book: "Chronicle of Liu Shaoqi's Life". from 1939 to 1940, Liu Shaoqi was the CCP Central China Bureau director. all of Liu Shaoqi's reports to Yan'an and orders to New Fourth Army were directed against the KMT, not a single report nor order was against the Japanese.

the CCP always broke their promises to send troops to aid the KMT in battles. notable mentions are the battles of Shanghai and Zhong Tiao Shan.

US General Albert Wedemeyer concluded the CCP war efforts this way: the CCP never attacked any significant Japanese outposts nor made any serious attempt to harass and disrupt the Japanese railway lines.

the story of CCP intelligence chief Pan Hannian is very interesting. according to the CCP Pan Hannian archives: in 1942, the Japanese troops made several offensives into CCP occupied areas. the CCP suffered badly. Pan Hannian successfully persuaded the Japanese Nanking Command to end the offensives against the CCP. in 1943. Pan Hannian on behalf of Mao Zedong negotiated a ceasefire with the Japanese Nanking that lasted from 1943 to 1944. Mao Zedong made good use of the ceasefire period by recalling the prominent CCP Commanders back to Yan’an for the loyal to Mao indoctrination program. Pan Hannian had an direct line of contact to the Japanese Nanking leadership by 1940.

in late 1943, Pan Hannian made his 3rd and last trip to meet the Japanese Nanking Command leaders. the reason could be to finalise the cooperation of CCP in the Japanese 1945 “Operation Number One campaign." 6 months later, the Japanese armies attacked the KMT armies from Henan to Hunan to Gunagxi. 6 Japanese Shidans ( Divisions ) were deployed from Manchuria and they moved past Yan’an without any trouble. the Japanese captured the KMT controlled cities. the CCP routed the little KMT resistance in the countrysides and remote areas and captured lots of lands during the Japanese campaign. in June 1945, Yang Fan, liaison officer of the New Fourth Army made an trip to Japanese Nanking to discuss with Japanese Nanking Command Deputy Chief of Staff Imai Takeo the possibility of a CCP-Japanese alliance against the KMT-American-British.

Chiang Kai Shek and Kuomintang could have done much better in the war if there wasn't the enemy from within - the Chinese Communist Party.

hardware said:

the contribution by KMT against the japanese invasion were far far greater than Chinese communist willing to acknowledge.

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Absolutely correct!

lightspeed said:

the Chinese Communist Party certainty disrupted the Kuomintang war efforts to a great extent.

from 1937-1941, the CCP proactively attacked the KMT troops and local forces in North & Central China & Jiangnan. according to the book: "Chronicle of Liu Shaoqi's Life". from 1939 to 1940, Liu Shaoqi was the CCP Central China Bureau director. all of Liu Shaoqi's reports to Yan'an and orders to New Fourth Army were directed against the KMT, not a single report nor order was against the Japanese.

the CCP always broke their promises to send troops to aid the KMT in battles. notable mentions are the battles of Shanghai and Zhong Tiao Shan.

US General Albert Wedemeyer concluded the CCP war efforts this way: the CCP never attacked any significant Japanese outposts nor made any serious attempt to harass and disrupt the Japanese railway lines.

the story of CCP intelligence chief Pan Hannian is very interesting. according to the CCP Pan Hannian archives: in 1942, the Japanese troops made several offensives into CCP occupied areas. the CCP suffered badly. Pan Hannian successfully persuaded the Japanese Nanking Command to end the offensives against the CCP. in 1943. Pan Hannian on behalf of Mao Zedong negotiated a ceasefire with the Japanese Nanking that lasted from 1943 to 1944. Mao Zedong made good use of the ceasefire period by recalling the prominent CCP Commanders back to Yan’an for the loyal to Mao indoctrination program. Pan Hannian had an direct line of contact to the Japanese Nanking leadership by 1940.

in late 1943, Pan Hannian made his 3rd and last trip to meet the Japanese Nanking Command leaders. the reason could be to finalise the cooperation of CCP in the Japanese 1945 “Operation Number One campaign." 6 months later, the Japanese armies attacked the KMT armies from Henan to Hunan to Gunagxi. 6 Japanese Shidans ( Divisions ) were deployed from Manchuria and they moved past Yan’an without any trouble. the Japanese captured the KMT controlled cities. the CCP routed the little KMT resistance in the countrysides and remote areas and captured lots of lands during the Japanese campaign. in June 1945, Yang Fan, liaison officer of the New Fourth Army made an trip to Japanese Nanking to discuss with Japanese Nanking Command Deputy Chief of Staff Imai Takeo the possibility of a CCP-Japanese alliance against the KMT-American-British.

Chiang Kai Shek and Kuomintang could have done much better in the war if there wasn't the enemy from within - the Chinese Communist Party.

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Wow, Taiwanese propaganda much?

The CCP were always attacking the KMT? Right, 5 campaigns of encirclement and extermination later, the KMT troops were totally the victims of CCP harassment.

I guess you've never heard of the Hundred Regiments Offensive either. Or may you think that was made up by the communists.

Finally, the sneaky communists were totally double-dealing with the Japanese, and Chiang, being a man of integrity, never once tried to negotiate with the Japanese.

Right?

solarz said:

Wow, Taiwanese propaganda much?

The CCP were always attacking the KMT? Right, 5 campaigns of encirclement and extermination later, the KMT troops were totally the victims of CCP harassment.

I guess you've never heard of the Hundred Regiments Offensive either. Or may you think that was made up by the communists.

Finally, the sneaky communists were totally double-dealing with the Japanese, and Chiang, being a man of integrity, never once tried to negotiate with the Japanese.

Right?

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the Chronicle of Liu Shaoqi and the story of Pan Hannian were from the Chinese Communist Party official archives. you can even read it online. Peng Dehuai famously wrote some works on the Hundred Regiments Offensive in prison. his view was quite interesting. do you know what he wrote ?

the Communists established the disloyal to Chinese nation and people, Jiangxi Soviet. the Communists deserved to be exterminated by the Kuomintang then.

no wonder CPP refuse to release national archieves,cuz,it could be so embarassing.
one important note,according to Chinese book "Snow white,blood red" written by retire PLA,during the siege shenyang,local KMT offer to surrender, but Mao refuse to accept it, result was more than 150,000 people starve to dead.
during the innitial KMT offensive in 1946, KMT landed in coast of Shantong province.hundred of thousand of people a lot of them peasant openly greet the KMT troop.according to book, was CPP terror forceble collectivinism and liquidation of "landlord,reactionary and superstition"
fast forward to 1971, when japanese PM Sato meet MTT,sato apolizied to MTT over japanese aggression in china, MTT wave his hand ,and said"why i should thank you.if not for the japanese imperial army, I am will not be sitting right here"

lightspeed said:

t
Chiang Kai Shek and Kuomintang could have done much better in the war if there wasn't the enemy from within - the Chinese Communist Party.

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If the KMT can't handle the "enemy from within" than they can't handle any kind of enemy at all. Chaing Kai Shek was more of an opportunist overlord than a leader or a general. His only interests is to getting his kind that aligns with his beliefs to prosper and become the new class of Chinese rulers.

lightspeed said:

the Communists established the disloyal to Chinese nation and people, Jiangxi Soviet. the Communists deserved to be exterminated by the Kuomintang then.

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Like the KMT were any better. They LOST...period...get over it already.

"The Kuomintang took no realistic measures to train people in self-government, which would have eliminated the justification for its own monopoly of political power. Instead, it immediately established a five-power government, . . . not as a beginning, but as an end, of the tutelage process."

"[Chiang] saw the unification of China as a military task, and never stopped to ask what would hold China together after his armies had done their job. He ruled China with his armies, not with ideas . . "

Here is a good reading from that essay that explains it well.

Equation said:

If the KMT can't handle the "enemy from within" than they can't handle any kind of enemy at all. Chaing Kai Shek was more of an opportunist overlord than a leader or a general. His only interests is to getting his kind that aligns with his beliefs to prosper and become the new class of Chinese rulers.

Like the KMT were any better. They LOST...period...get over it already.

"The Kuomintang took no realistic measures to train people in self-government, which would have eliminated the justification for its own monopoly of political power. Instead, it immediately established a five-power government, . . . not as a beginning, but as an end, of the tutelage process."

"[Chiang] saw the unification of China as a military task, and never stopped to ask what would hold China together after his armies had done their job. He ruled China with his armies, not with ideas . . "

Here is a good reading from that essay that explains it well.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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the Chinese Communist Party chose to reveal the Pan Hannian story themselves, nothing to do with the Kuomintang at all. i certainly think it puts the role of CCP in the war then in a very bad light.

this CCP Jiangxi Soviet, the Chinese Soviet Republic was 10 times worse than the so-called Chiang Kai Shek fascist government.

people wonder whether the KMT or the CCP had more support then. i mentioned earlier already. the majority of people don't understand nor care about Sun Yat Sen three principles of the people and Marxism–Leninism Communist ideology. most people supported neither parties. the KMT unified China in 1929 by force of arms and the CCP unified China in 1949 by force of arms too. both parties claimed to have the people's support in unifying the country to claim the Mandate of Heaven title to justify their control of China. the people had no choice. both KMT and CCP forced themselves on the people of China.

lightspeed said:

the Chinese Communist Party chose to reveal the Pan Hannian story themselves, nothing to do with the Kuomintang at all. i certainly think it puts the role of CCP in the war then in a very bad light.

this CCP Jiangxi Soviet, the Chinese Soviet Republic was 10 times worse than the so-called Chiang Kai Shek fascist government.

people wonder whether the KMT or the CCP had more support then. i mentioned earlier already. the majority of people don't understand nor care about Sun Yat Sen three principles of the people and Marxism–Leninism Communist ideology. most people supported neither parties. the KMT unified China in 1929 by force of arms and the CCP unified China in 1949 by force of arms too. both parties claimed to have the people's support in unifying the country to claim the Mandate of Heaven title to justify their control of China. the people had no choice. both KMT and CCP forced themselves on the people of China.

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Another BS revisionist history. I wonder if you know the meaning of mandate of heaven at all. By definition if the CCP lost the mandate of heaven they are not in power by now even after the disastrous Great leap forward and cultural revolution. The Kuomintang lost the civil war period because they mismanaged the country so bad that people fed up with them and give an opening to CCP . No amount of revisionist history is going to change that fact live with it. No amount of arm will be successful against arm uprising if it just and supported by the people. REad the PEW report that show 90% of people support the direction of where the country is going