Ask anything Thread (Air Force)

delft

Brigadier
Hey all,
just got a general question, I was watching the news and saw China's Presidents Xi's plane land in the US yesterday. Did his 747 have fighter escorts when it flew from China to the US?
Air Force One always has escorts, so I'm guessing China's equivalent to AirForceOne would have something similar. Curious as to what escort fighters they had, and would the fighters be allowed in US airspace after crossing the Pacific?
The US President is much heavier protected than any other head of state in the World. Even so I doubt Air Force One needs to have a fighter escort over the ocean far from land.
 

duskylim

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Hello,
I just finished reading the post on the JF-17 Thunder from PakDef. All in all a good read.
I have a question that might offend some but here goes.
What was it that made the JF-17 project so successful while the Tejas project seems to be in trouble?
I am interested in the choices made that in one case produced a limited, though thoroughly capable and affordable fighter and those that seem to have stalled the other project.
So if you are a developing country how do you go about making a successful fighter project?
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hello,
I just finished reading the post on the JF-17 Thunder from PakDef. All in all a good read.
I have a question that might offend some but here goes.
What was it that made the JF-17 project so successful while the Tejas project seems to be in trouble?
I am interested in the choices made that in one case produced a limited, though thoroughly capable and affordable fighter and those that seem to have stalled the other project.
So if you are a developing country how do you go about making a successful fighter project?
First welcome to the forum and I appreciate your sensitivity of other members feelings. But I believe that as long as we all stay on facts, it should be fine, people here should be mature enough to face facts even they may not be pleasant facts.

Now let me give a try to your question.
1. Commitment
JF-17 is an insurance policy to Pakistan due to the uncertainty of F-16. The chance of JF-17 meeting their requirements is much higher than the chance of getting F-16.
For India, the chance of Tejas failure is probably higher than failed importing deal of foreign jets, without Raffle, there is Sukoi, Eurofighter, JAS, or F-18 is on the table.

2. Philosophy
China choose to have something that works in designed environment instead of having all the best parts. Pakistan seemed agree with that approach. A little similar to Russian or Soviet philosophy. India seems to be more of western, wanting to have everything "best". A good comparison is T-34 and Tiger. One thing Tejas suffered was the constant change of specification by the India military.

2. Industrial capability
China's GDP is more than 50% physical production industry, has big manufacturing bases in semiconductor, material, even jet engines. India's GDP composition has far less industry than China. And GDP is 3:1. You know China used to have the biggest number of fighter jets over 3000. Although they were all behind Soviet and American in terms of tech, but they are ahead of India. The number also means China made lots lots of jet engines, another good stepping stone.

3. Theoretical research.
Just a hint, China has the largest groups of wind tunnels in Asia. I don't know about U.S. or Russia, can't compare. That number is the foundation to research, just like labs to scientists.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Hello,

What was it that made the JF-17 project so successful while the Tejas project seems to be in trouble?
Pakistan worked closely with China in designing, building, and delivering the JF-17. China has a long and well established track record of producing military fighter and attack aircraft...both from license builds, from their own re-engineering, and developing them from scratch.

India is producing the Tejas themselves. Although they do buy some parts from others, the aircraft is one that they have designed and built themselves without any massive help from another nation. But India does not have any record of designing and building their own military fighter/attack aircraft

I believe these are the principle differences that account for the comparison you make.

The Tejas needs to be produced by India so they can establish themselves as a nation that can design, build, deliver, and maintain their own aircraft from the onset. But it has been very painful. However, that pain is producing experience and from that experience the Indians will learn a lot and perhaps go on and be able to produce the next one much more efficiently.

Pakistan is building the JF-17, and their experience in doing so is obvious. But they have had a lot of help from China. Whether this will translate in the future to Pakistan being able to design, build, deliver, and maintain their own indigenous aircraft is not clear.
 

timepass

Brigadier
India is producing the Tejas themselves. Although they do buy some parts from others, the aircraft is one that they have designed and built themselves without any massive help from another nation. But India does not have any record of designing and building their own military fighter/attack aircraft

I believe these are the principle differences that account for the comparison you make.

I tend to differ from you here....

Indian's are enjoying all types of supports from US/Russia & even Europe for this project from engines to avionics from the inception. Despite of that project is in run for almost more than 3 decades & we haven't see any flying Sqd yet.

While JF17 is purely a splendid example of hard work, dedication with limited resources.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I tend to differ from you here....

Indian's are enjoying all types of supports from US/Russia & even Europe for this project from engines to avionics from the inception.
Actually...no. You are completely wrong on that.

With the Tejas, there is nothing comparable in its development to the involvement that China has had with the JF-17. Nothing whatsever.

It is true it is using a GE engine...but many aircraft wholly developed by other nations have GE engines, or Rolls Royce, or others. This does not mean that GE or Rolls Royce designed the aircraft, or had a strong hand in its design.

It was originally initiated based on recommendations from
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back in the 1970s I believe. Then, in 1984 the Indian government created and tasked their own
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to oversee the development. As the design matured, Dassault did assist in an advisory role only, but that pretty much ended by 1988.

The Indian government set up a specific team from the National Aeronautics Laboratory to design the aircrafts fly-by-wire system in 1992. Not the US or Russia.

HAL's Hyderabad division lead the indigenous Multi-Mode Radar development starting in in 1997.

Because these and other components were basically being scratch started, they had a lot of problems and set backs. It was not until 2005 that the first order for 20 aircraft was actually placed.

Then, in April 2007, the first prototype flew.

By 2008, India indicated that 70% of the components for the aircraft were being manufactured in India, and the dependence on imported components was planned to be progressively reduced. And they have continued to try and do that.

As stated, India had to start a lot of the industries to make their own aircraft from scratch. That fact, and the troubles they have had getting them all to work is why the LCA/Tejas has taken so long.

So, you see, the Tejas is an Indian project, it has had very little help from the US (heck, it has only been in the last few years that the Indian military market has really opened up to US), nor from Russia at all...and they have meant it that way.

They know if they are going to get to a point where they can design, build and produce their own aircraft, and then maintain them...they have to go through the pain.

It's just taking longer than they expected...but I give them credit for sticking with it.

In the meant time they have made good choices on foreign purchases with the SU-30s and the Mig-29Ks. It will be a long time before they reach that stage of development...but the Tejas/LCA is a good start.
 

timepass

Brigadier
Actually...no. You are completely wrong on that.

With the Tejas, there is nothing comparable in its development to the involvement that China has had with the JF-17. Nothing whatsever.

It is true it is using a GE engine...but many aircraft wholly developed by other nations have GE engines, or Rolls Royce, or others. This does not mean that GE or Rolls Royce designed the aircraft, or had a strong hand in its design.

It was originally initiated based on recommendations from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
back in the 1970s I believe. Then, in 1984 the Indian government created and tasked their own
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to oversee the development. As the design matured, Dassault did assist in an advisory role only, but that pretty much ended by 1988.

The Indian government set up a specific team from the National Aeronautics Laboratory to design the aircrafts fly-by-wire system in 1992. Not the US or Russia.

HAL's Hyderabad division lead the indigenous Multi-Mode Radar development starting in in 1997.

Because these and other components were basically being scratch started, they had a lot of problems and set backs. It was not until 2005 that the first order for 20 aircraft was actually placed.

Then, in April 2007, the first prototype flew.

By 2008, India indicated that 70% of the components for the aircraft were being manufactured in India, and the dependence on imported components was planned to be progressively reduced. And they have continued to try and do that.

As stated, India had to start a lot of the industries to make their own aircraft from scratch. That fact, and the troubles they have had getting them all to work is why the LCA/Tejas has taken so long.

So, you see, the Tejas is an Indian project, it has had very little help from the US (heck, it has only been in the last few years that the Indian military market has really opened up to US), nor from Russia at all...and they have meant it that way.

They know if they are going to get to a point where they can design, build and produce their own aircraft, and then maintain them...they have to go through the pain.

It's just taking longer than they expected...but I give them credit for sticking with it.

In the meant time they have made good choices on foreign purchases with the SU-30s and the Mig-29Ks. It will be a long time before they reach that stage of development...but the Tejas/LCA is a good start.

I am not in argument here & don't want to go in further........

But whatever you mentioned above are being done with foreign support...

Same goes with some other famous projects like...Kolkata class DDG, Arjun MBT ran for decades.....
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
ISame goes with some other famous projects like...Kolkata class DDG, Arjun MBT.....
Yes...I agree that they have a history of very difficult and protracted indigenous programs.

...part of it is trying to jump start industries...another part, and this is IMHO also undeniable, is learning to improve their project management and logistical management.

But learning to do that is all necessary of they want to build their own.

For what it is worth, it does look like their Project 15B vessels are going to come out much more quickly than the Kolkatas.
 

timepass

Brigadier
Yes...I agree that they have a history of very difficult and protracted indigenous programs.

...part of it is trying to jump start industries...another part, and this is IMHO also undeniable, is learning to improve their project management and logistical management.

But learning to do that is all necessary of they want to build their own.

For what it is worth, it does look like their Project 15B vessels are going to come out much more quickly than the Kolkatas.

Yes I fully agree what you mentioned above....

What I am trying to highlight the point is they had all the support from the globe but despite of that their projects ran for decades prior to reach to a success.

While OTOH, Pakistan don't have that lavishness even our students are refrain from getting admissions in classified degree course rest alone the other supports.

Despite of that constrains JF17 is success story from all aspects thanks to chinese friends..
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Yes I fully agree what you mentioned above....

Despite of that constrains JF17 is success story from all aspects thanks to chinese friends..
Exactly.

The Chinese involvement, along with the Pakstani whole hearted and enthusiastic acceptance of the JF-17 and their hard work with it...is what has proven the key to their success.

India has not had such a partner on the Tejas (and for the reasons I gave, really doesn't want one), and their own project and logistical management issues have added to their problems.
 
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