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Discussion in 'Air Force' started by Jeff Head, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Viktor Jav
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    Viktor Jav Junior Member
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    Several reasons :
    1) The fact that you brought up the Su-27 deal should have given you an idea how effectively China can reverse engineer any tech that they can get their hands on. The original deal was for China to produce Su-27s with Russian avionics and engines, thus giving Russia a steady revenue. But emergence of the J-11 pretty much threw that into the shredder. So Russia is very unlikely to make another similar deal with China in which China buys a small batch of Tu-22ms or Tu-160s and pretty much skip over years if not decades of Russian effort and money spent on designing the bombers. Something any nation will have a bitter taste for.
    2) Despite Russian and Chinese chumminess in recent years. They still have certain degrees of rivalry, such rivalry was even more pronounced during the Cold War and it's immediate aftermath. So despite how cash starved Russia was, it was not going to sell every single shiny toy it has in its arsenal to a erstwhile rival. Especially if there is no guarantee that those said weapons won't be used against it.
     
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  2. Bhurki
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    Bhurki Junior Member
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    Well russia doesnt have the capability or resources to introduce any new ground breaking tech in the military arena ...
    So they can either cash in on the cold war tech that is still relevant to current scenario or wait long enough that it becomes irrelevant ..
    Either way it can't hope to win a rivalry with china's military complex in any future scenario....
     
  3. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    Actually the NK-32 was at one point proposed as the main engine for the Yak-141 (Izdeliye 201).
    I think the engine is too heavy for the thrust it provides compared with more modern engines like the F135 however.

    Once China does the Comac 929 it will need an engine with similar thrust to the NK-32. I think that will be the time to think about projects that require high thrust engines. Not now.
     
  4. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    Nah. Russia still sold the Chinese the Su-35 in relatively small numbers. Russia allegedly also made an offer to India in the past to sell them the Tu-22M for the naval strike role. I think if the Chinese really wanted Russia would sell them, say, a dozen Tu-22M bombers. The question is what about the support infrastructure? Is that NK-25 engine even manufactured anymore? I know the Russians are upgrading the electronics in it but those large outdated engines are a big question mark in my opinion. At one point Russia had a project to replace the Tu-22M, namely the Sukhoi T-60S, but because of the fall of the Soviet Union AFAIK it never went past the paper stage. The current Russian government selected that monster, the Tu-160, as their main bomber platform which IMHO is excessive given the status of their economy. Even the USA, with a much larger economy, does not have a bomber with that kind of size nor does it have one planned to be built.

    I see things like this. If China really wants a supersonic strategic bomber they can either make a quad engine aircraft with currently available engine technology, or wait a decade until larger engines like the ones used in the Comac 929 will come into production to make a dual engine aircraft. Producing such an aircraft at this point will also put even more pressure on Xian which is already busy with the Y-20 and H-20 among other things. In addition from what I understand Comac was partly formed with people from Xian since they are the ones with experience in large aircraft construction. Also Xian has limited experience with supersonic designs. Other than the JH-7 I can't think of anything else they did. That program kind of worked for the time but the airframe does not exactly seem state of the art to me and I suspect that aircraft will be totally replaced with the J-16.

    Also the Chinese have more data on variable geometry aircraft than a lot of people realize. They had access to downed F-111 airplanes in the Vietnam War. They also allegedly had access to Iran's F-14s at one point. The fact that they did not even try to go that route shows a lot of things. i.e. I doubt they will make an aircraft with a design like that.
     
  5. Viktor Jav
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    Viktor Jav Junior Member
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    Relatively small numbers for a rather inflated price tag. 2 Billion for 24 units translates into around 83 million per plane. A rather hefty price considering the lower end estimate of a Su-35 is around 40 million. And while the Su-35 is undoubtedly the best fighter that Russia can offer for export, it's airframe is still based on the Su-27 lineage, something which China already has ample access to, so there is no extra damage that Russia can self-afflict by selling the Su-35 to China. As to matters relating to the engines, well let just say that studying an airframe is a lot different then trying to figure how how to replicate a jet turbine engine with nothing but a single model to go by.
    As for Russia wanting to sell India Tu-22M3, there is the fact that India has proven itself to be less capable in matters relating to military technology, the fact that it spend darn near decades for a battle rifle or a single light fighter gives one a good idea of their level of competence.
    The USA while not fielding a bomber the equivalent of the Tu-160, fields the B-2s instead, which subscribes to an entirely different philosophy but is no less a potent bomber in its own right.
     
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  6. Deino
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    Deino Brigadier
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    In what universe would an engine like the NK-32 fit to a modern high-end airliner like the projected C929??? :eek:o_O:confused:

    Come on guys ... please stop this long what-if discussion or start a separate thread in the bar.
     
  7. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    The cost of the Su-35 probably includes some support and maintenance. Everyone else is negotiating contracts in the same way now.

    Plus my view is that there are other things included in the price tag of $2 Billion, not just the Su-35.
     
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  8. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    It's been obvious to China that supersonic non-stealthy strategic bombers (like the Tu-22, Tu-160) aren't survivable past the 2nd island chain.
    That has been the case for at least 20 years now.

    So why are we discussing this?

    Look at China's bomber requirements:

    To get past the 2nd island chain, you need a stealth bomber. Anything with a huge radar signature isn't going to survive.

    And if you just want to reach the 2nd chain chain, you only need a J-16 or JH-7 sized airframe. These would be supersonic and also non-stealthy like the Tu-22/160.
     
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  9. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    It is called the PD-30 engine. It allegedly would use the same engine core as the NK-32 with an extra geared turbofan. It was proposed for the Comac 929 together with the PD-35 engine. Which is supposed to be like some enlarged version of the PD-14 engine. Remember the airplane is supposed to be a joint Russian-Chinese venture. So the Russians want to have a domestic engine option.
     
  10. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    Yet the Russians basically canned the PAK-DA and are resuming Tu-160 production. Now I know that Russians are in love with huge (sometimes useless) things. Like the Tsar Cannon or the Tsar Tank. Yet is it really that useless? The Tu-160 and the B-1 are variable geometry precisely because they are supposed to use low-level flight when approaching radar targets. I still remember the original B-1 requirements. It was thought that stealth would be useless against latest gen Soviet radar so they would have to fly nap of the earth close to the target to avoid radar detection. That's the whole design goal of both those aircraft. Especially the B-1. Back then they did not have composites widely available.

    It is not like stealth design was totally unknown. The USA had black projects like the Convair Kingfish and the Lockheed A-12 in the late 1950s which were supposed to have stealth characteristics. Then the SR-71 prototype, the A-12, was tested in Vietnam against Soviet radar and it flopped real bad. That lead to more conservative bomber designs with less emphasis on radar stealth in the late 1960s.

    Only later than that was the stealth aircraft program restarted again. If you look at the Convair Kingfish and the Lockheed F-117 you can see a definitive resemblance. The difference is they had better theoretical support for designing a stealth aircraft without doing tests with mockups and they had better materials available.

    But everyone knows what this stealth business is like. It is only a matter of time until sensors advance and render current stealth obsolete.

    Besides the Chinese do have crazy plans for hypersonic intercontinental near-space bombers and the like. It is just that none will ever reach production stage in the near future.
     
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