Article on some new ROC weapons

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
There were rumors that the ROCAF received training to use AGM-88 missiles on F-16's in 2001, along with a purchase of 20 missiles. But according to most sources that rumor is unproven/false.

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Taiwan Creates Its Own Smart Bombs

March 21, 2006: The U.S. has refused to sell Taiwan aircraft weapons that could be used to attack China. In particular, this means no radar homing (AGM-88C HARM) missiles and JDAM smart bombs. Both could be used to demolish Chinese anti-aircraft defenses. Late last year, it was agreed that refusing the HARM made some practical sense as well, because the new Chinese air defense systems (the Russian SA-10 series) has a long range radar that could detect and nail a HARM carrying aircraft, before the HARM could be launched.

To get around this refusal, Taiwan has been building their own version of the American JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) Also called the AGM-154A, the Taiwanese version is called the Wan Chien. Taiwan recently made a very public announcement about Wan Chien, which was another way of sending a "don't attack us" message to China.

JSOW is basically a smart bomb with wings. That enables it to glide up to 70 kilometers from the aircraft dropping it, to a target on the ground. Range is about 25 kilometers if dropped from low altitude. JSOW also contains more elaborate fins and software that enables it to follow a specific route. Like the wingless JDAM smart bomb, JSOW uses GPS and inertial guidance (as a backup) to find its target. Like JDAM, JSOW hits within 30 feet of its aiming point. The U.S. pays about $250,000 for each JSOW. The Taiwanese could use their Wan Chien. JSOW as a form of HARM to take out the latest Chinese air defense radars, by adding additional sensors to the guidance system.

Taiwan is also building its own version of HARM, called Tien Chien 2A. JDAM technology is a lot simpler than these two other projects, and Taiwan could easily design and build its own. Refusing to sell them just costs the U.S. export sales. On the other hand, it allows the United States to tell China that it didn't sell JDAM to Taiwan, thus defusing tensions over Taiwan. In reality, of course, Taiwan can just go build their own JDAM, which they will probably do.

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New missile ready soon: Lee Jye
SECURITY: The defense minister discussed the new weapon, which is a type of cluster bomb, as well as submarines with lawmakers on the National Defense Committee
By Rich Chang
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Mar 09, 2006,Page 1


Minister of National Defense Lee Jye (李傑) said yesterday that the military is close to producing a new weapon that can attack enemies' airports.
"It is a air-to-surface missile with standoff capability which could be used in attacking the enemy's airports," Lee said during a meeting of the legislature's National Defense Committee.

Lee's comment was the first official confirmation of the development of the weapon under the "Ten Thousand Sword" plan by the ministry's Chung Shan Institute of Science and Technology.

According to previous media reports, the weapon is a kind of cluster bomb, able to operate from ranges outside enemy defenses.

Lee also told lawmakers, in response to questions, that he prefers the US build the eight diesel submarines that are part of the long-delayed arms procurement budget.

Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Lin Yu-fang (林郁方) asked why the country needed to spend around US$12 billion to buy eight diesel subs from the US, citing an article in the Feb. 13 edition of Defense News (a leading international news weekly covering the global defense industry) that said European countries could build eight conventional subs for around US$5 billion.

Lin noted that US Representative Rob Simmons, who visited Taipei last month, had said the price for the eight subs could drop to around US$8 billion.

"The US has not exported its subs to other countries, and I believe that US subs have many high-tech systems not known to the outside world, so I firmly believe the US can make better quality subs for Taiwan than Europe," Lee said.

Since the US has not built diesel subs for about 35 years, it plans to find a European country that is willing to build the eight subs for Taiwan once the legislature passes the procurement bill, Lee said.

However, Simmons, who met Lee last month during his visit, has said that US Electric Boat has declared itself capable and willing to produce a series of advanced diesel submarines for Taiwan.

The minister also agreed yesterday with Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Legislator Lee Wen-chung's (李文忠) proposal that top sub experts from around the world be hired as consultants to decide how much money the country should pay for the eight vessels.

Only such a consultancy could resolve the current standoff, Lee Wen-chung said.

Lee Jye said the ministry would ask for a supplementary budget to cover preliminary spending on the subs, such as consultants' fees.

The ministry has previously said that the submarine budget was arrived at by the US Navy through an independent cost estimate system in January 2003, and that the US Navy has refused to negotiate on the budget before the submarine purchase is approved by the legislature.

Lee Jye said he would press the US to separate the cost of designing the subs from building them.
 
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MrClean

New Member
Wow, good for them. The thing is, the unit cost alone is around $300,000 but the development cost is up into the triple digit millions. The quality of these would be in question, but if it's even 'watered down' when compared to the American version, it can still be VERY effective. One thing that makes the American version so damm expensive is that we want them to be able to fly through your front door and explode in the center of the room if we want. But the Taiwanese just want this weapon to fit thier specific needs, so it doesn't need to be that accurate or that expensive. That's also a good thing about the JSOW, it goes to a certain point and then deploys a whole apoacalypse full of bomblets with shaped-charges, and some zirconium rings for an 'incendiary effect.' So really it doesn't have to be all un-godly accurate and high-tech, just accurate enough to get just above the target.
All you hear is the sound of the bomblets releasing, and then.... BA-BABA-BBBABA-BABA-BOBOOOBOBOBOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOODBYE TANK FORMATION! Or airfield, or whatever...

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If they have the money to produce them, I think they should go for it.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
I heard of the indigenious HARM program quite some time ago, but I hadn't been able to verify the story yet.

But the most astonishing thing about the article...

A SMART BOMB THAT CAN GLIDE FOR 70KM, 25KM AT LOW ALTITUDES?! Exactly how low are we talking here? It's a unpropelled bomb with wings! How far can it go?!

Either I need to re-take classes in Physics, or Taiwan has figured out how to make bombs that can defy gravity.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
i'm wondering if the reporter have passed high school physics, remember that gravity will pull everything at 9.81 m/s^2 then reach terminal velocity. to glide about 70 km, then this thing have to be dropped from low orbit...with a established velocity toward its intended destination... too lazy to figure out the numbers, but a quick calculation by my brain (my engineering brain with basically a minor in math and 20 other courses that's calculus based) says that it can't be done. the numbers don't add up, and does taiwan even have a plane capable of flying that high to deliver???
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
The_Zergling said:
I heard of the indigenious HARM program quite some time ago, but I hadn't been able to verify the story yet.

But the most astonishing thing about the article...

A SMART BOMB THAT CAN GLIDE FOR 70KM, 25KM AT LOW ALTITUDES?! Exactly how low are we talking here? It's a unpropelled bomb with wings! How far can it go?!

Either I need to re-take classes in Physics, or Taiwan has figured out how to make bombs that can defy gravity.

some south african version of the bomb can go further then that !!
although accuracy suffers as the range increases
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
darth sidious said:
some south african version of the bomb can go further then that !!
although accuracy suffers as the range increases

And exactly how? The fact that accuracy suffers as range increases is *probably* true, depending on how good the guidance system is, the as long as you have a (very) basic understanding of physics you can easily tell than it's not physically possible for a un-propelled bomb can go that far!

Hell, I don't know if that's even within the capabilities of a glider.

Unless you know something I don't, then by all means let me in the loop.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Well, if I'm not mistaken, the bomb is going straight when it is released. And their going very fast. To my simple brain putting those two together = long long range. But the ROC has a vested interest in exxagerating its capabilites.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
The_Zergling said:
And exactly how? The fact that accuracy suffers as range increases is *probably* true, depending on how good the guidance system is, the as long as you have a (very) basic understanding of physics you can easily tell than it's not physically possible for a un-propelled bomb can go that far!

Hell, I don't know if that's even within the capabilities of a glider.

Unless you know something I don't, then by all means let me in the loop.

the range is dependant on the speed and altiude of the release aircraft in order to meet teh target range the aircraft must fly a specific profile

some south aferican version gets around this by attaching a rocket to teh bomb ineffect making it a primitive missile
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Yes, I know the basic rules of physics. I agree that height (potential energy) and speed (kinetic energy) put together will greatly increase the range of a bomb. Speed of the aircraft + Gravity.

But consider the stated range again.

Seriously. 70 KM?

The friggin' AMRAAM has a range of 75 KM! (Give or take a few) And it's not a heavy JDAM! And it's got a big rocket sticking out of its butt that sends it streaking towards its unfortunate target like there's no tomorrow! And it can only go 75KM! (Well actually, probably more before it hits the ground)

I really find it hard to believe a bomb (Which packs a lot more heavy explosives than a AMRAAM) would be able to glide 70KM without any additional propulsion.

Technically yeah, it's possible. Have a flight of F-16s take off from Hualien AFB on the Eastern side of Taiwan, have them fly east towards the Pacific, at the same time ascending until they reach oh say ~70000 feet. Then, have them turn around 180 degrees, lighting the afterburners until they're at max operational speed (Let's say around Mach 2, 2600 Kilometers per hour) And when they're a third of the way over the Taiwan Strait, release the bombs, and slow down before they cross the centerline and get shot down by Chinese SAMs. In the meantime, who the hell is pointing the laser at the target so the bombs will have "pin-point" accuracy?

I'm sorry if I sound very sarcastic. If my grasp of physics is way off then by all means educate me.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
here's the equation for finding terminal velocity:
F = m * a
a = F / m
F = W - D
a = (W - D) / m
D = Cd * r * V ^2 * A / 2
D = W at terminal velocity
Cd * r * V ^2 * A / 2 = W
V = sqrt ( (2 * W) / (Cd * r * A)
where A is frontal area, Cd is drag coefficient, V velocity, W weight, r is gas density. a is gravitation acceleration (9.81). assuming 15 km altitude (f-16), and with a velocity in x-direction (horizontal) of 2600km/h or 722 m/s. means the bomb needs 96.92 seconds to travel 70 kms horizontally.
assuming air as an ideal gas, using PV=nRT and density (D) = n/V getting about 1.225 kg/m^3, the drag coefficient is unknown, but can assume a smooth sphere with Re=10^6 turbulent flow with coefficient of 0.1. the AGM-88 is 367 kg, and a diameter of 254mm, let's use that as a standard. this will give you a terminal velocity of 153.6 m/s... which will give you an 97.6 seconds for the bomb to drop to the ground. but there's also drag and air resistence from the horizontal direction. which is D=Cd*A*(r*V^2)/2 this A is different from the terminal velocity A, it is the surface area of the bomb. this give about D = 27050.4 Newtons in the horizontal direction. that's 27 kN. F=m*a. for distance in horizontal direction d = Vt + 1/2at^2 where V is velocity of bomb in horizontal direction, t is time and a is decelleration of bomb due to drag. so a is about 0.0737 m/s^2. then d is 70.116 km ish. this means the numbers they calculated are assuming the plane dropping it is flying at 15000 m above ground and at mach 2... and at this exact condition.. there's a lot of factors i'm not calculating here. such as weather and air density, which have a huge factor (air density increase as you get lower). only the extremely optimistic will think the bomb can glide 70 km on its own. and at mach 2.. the pilot won't have much time to release the bomb since the taiwan strait is only 160 km wide.. he'll be over the half way line before he even know it.

PS: i think i got my units wrong somewhere, because taking 2 minutes to drop almost doesn't seem right, haven't used basic physics like this for like 7 years now, so if it's wrong don't come screaming at me, but it's should be in the ball park. this just wasted 10 minutes of my life that i could use to do my 3 reports due monday... argh.. i just started the first one
 
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