Anti-Torpedo Weapons & countermeasure systems

Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Submarine warfare remains probably the most significant danger to any surface combatant, including large vessels such as aircraft carriers. There is a reason that submariners believe that there are only two types of vessels in the world. The first are the submarines, the second are targets...meaning everyone else.

Numerous defensive measures have been developed, both for vessels in port, and on the high seas. These have mainly been oriented towards either blocking access in harbor, or more and more sophisticated decoys at sea. They also include the speed and agility of the vessels, though generally, the larger and more valuable a vessel, the less speed and agility it has (one exception is the speed of the US nuclear carriers...if they have time get up to speed).

So, I thought a thread discussin the technology and systems available would be a good thing on SD. I mean actual systems that are being developed or are already deployed and must be documents as such. This thread is not meant to be, and will not turn into a sci-fi, or fan boy conjecture of systems.

So here's an important start.

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The US Navy is actively developing and testing a comprehensive anti-torpedo weapon system that is called the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense (SSTD) system consisting of a Toprdeo Warning System (TWS), a Target Acquisition Group (TAG), and a Tactical Control Group (TAG) to emply a Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo (CAT) against incoming enemy torpedos of all types:

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CAT-Launch-from-CVN77.jpg

US Navy countermeasure anti-torpedo (CAT) launches from USS George Bush, CVN-77, in May 2013
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US Naval Institute said:
The US Navy has is developing a weapon designed to intercept and destroy guided enemy torpedoes immune to U.S. countermeasures, Naval Sea Systems Command officials told USNI News on Wednesday.

The Surface Ship Torpedo Defense (SSTD) program under development to protect high dollar surface warships — like the Navy’s nuclear aircraft carriers — from torpedoes specifically designed to attack large ships like aircraft carriers and large civilian oil tankers.

The tests — conducted in May onboard the USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) — pair a Torpedo Warning System (TWS) towed behind the ship with a highly maneuverable Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo (CAT) that seeks and destroys the incoming enemy weapon. The CAT is currently being developed by the Pennsylvania State University Applied Research Laboratory.

The torpedo warning system is towed behind the ship. When the TWS detects an enemy weapon an operator on the ship decides whether or not to launch the CAT, NAVSEA told USNI News.

Development of the SSTD helps cover a serious threat to major U.S. ships from Soviet-designed torpedoes initially developed in the 1960s, naval analyst Norman Friedman told USNI News.

“Torpedoes are an often-unappreciated threat to surface ships. The usual countermeasures are noisemakers intended to decoy an approaching homing torpedo. Unfortunately the Russians use wake-following torpedoes that do not respond to the usual countermeasures at all," Friedman said.

The Russian Type-53 torpedo includes sensors that detect the churn made by ships underway. Once the torpedo senses the chopped water it will follow a ship in a S-pattern between the wakes until it finds its targets.

“Anyone who buys Russian Kilo-class submarines — almost anyone the U.S. would come into conflict with — uses torpedoes which do not respond to U.S. torpedo countermeasures,” Friedman said.

Russia has heavily exported the Kilo diesel/electric submarine to Southeast Asia and the attack boat is a mainstay of navies in Vietnam, India and China.

The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy fields 12 Kilos with Soviet-era Type 53-65 wake homing torpedoes with a range of 11.8 miles.

As conflicts in the South China Sea intensify and the Pentagon shifts more forces to the Pacific, submarines have been high on the wish lists for countries in the region.

Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Jonathan Greenert, has called for increased research and development into anti-torpedo torpedoes since he took the top Navy job in 2011.
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Screen-Shot-2013-06-19-at-3.54.56-PM.png

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See also:

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This is a very important development. The first end-to-end test of this system was conducted in May 2013 aboard the USS Geroge Bush, CVN-77 (as shown above in the picture of the launch of the CAT).
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Although sonar is the submarine primary instrument for navigation and searching, what other new hi-tech methods or instruments are being developed at this time do you know of Jeff?
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
So unlike the concept in your book which acted on the principles of a Close in weapons system basicly firing off a supercavitating wall of flak, the real system works on the principles of a what? An Aegis system under water? Detect the threat plot the threat counter with a equal missile or in this case torpedo. Now does it aim to kill via concussive force or direct impact? And against a super cav type torpedo would it remain effective?
Given that the system uses a torpedo vs. Torpedo I would imagine subs would be unlikely users as although it is there main weapons system most submarines actually carry very few save for perhaps Seawolf class which sacrifices VLS systems for a comparatively massive war load of fish.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
the real system works on the principles of a what? An Aegis system under water? Detect the threat plot the threat counter with a equal missile or in this case torpedo. Now does it aim to kill via concussive force or direct impact? And against a super cav type torpedo would it remain effective?

Given that the system uses a torpedo vs. Torpedo I would imagine subs would be unlikely users as although it is there main weapons system most submarines actually carry very few save for perhaps Seawolf class which sacrifices VLS systems for a comparatively massive war load of fish.
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Well, I am not privy to all of the details, but I imagine this system uses an explosive warhead and probably a proximity device to explode near the oncoming torpedo, and in front of it. That explosion and underwater concussion would then either destroy or damge the oncoming torpedo and render it at least a mission kill. No need for a hit to kill device.

If they have time to arrange a plot and fire the thing, it would also be effective against super-cavitating weapons. In that case, any disruption of the cavity will destroy the weapon, so it just has to have enough time to explode in the proximity of the oncoming weapon, in front of it.

In
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, that was also the idea of the supercavitating counter fire. Worked on the same principle. Get out in front of it, explode, and destroy the cavitation, then the weapon destroys itself as it hits a wall of water at several hunred knots.

This is a smaller weapon than normal torpedos, but if they had a sleeve to fit around it and launch it out of a normal tube, and if they built in the sesnors, acquisition and targeting systems, there is no reason this could not be used from a submarine as well...though I expect they will be predominantly used on large carriers and amphibious assault ships first.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Equation said:
Although sonar is the submarine primary instrument for navigation and searching, what other new hi-tech methods or instruments are being developed at this time do you know of Jeff?
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There are all sorts of things on the table, from particular wave lengths of various types of light/energy, to super cavitating weapons and counter systems, to newer sonars at various frequencies, to decoy systems, etc.

In this thread though, I wanted to speak specifially to defensive measures against torpedo weapons that have already been launched and are in the water attacking a surface ship.

This new US System is an example...and a good one. I imiagine that the Russians, the Chinese, various Eurpean nations, other Asian nations, etc. either have, or are developing others. That's what I want to explore in this thread...though only systems that are actually being developed or deployed, not sci-fi stuff which is just being talked about.

This US System is actually at a pretty advanced stage of development, where they are already taking it to sea and doing live, end-to-end tests.
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Here's an old promo video for Russian Paket-E/NK from 2009:

[video=youtube;KBpNNVuD4ik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBpNNVuD4ik[/video]


This system is installed on the Stergushchy class corvette:
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bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
This is interesting. I knew someone who was at one time and still may be working on this system..He's also USN retired. I haven't spoken to him in years.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
This is an interesting concept. As for guidance, perhaps the system could hone in on the special sound signature generated by the enemy torpedo, kind of like an anti-radiation missile.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
siegecrossbow said:
This is an interesting concept. As for guidance, perhaps the system could hone in on the special sound signature generated by the enemy torpedo, kind of like an anti-radiation missile.
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Well a fish is very noisy with a high pitched scream once it goes active and acquires the target, and accelerates to flank.

On a side note, I have tried to find a phone ringer that duplicates the pinging of sonar on an active fish that has acquired a target- such as in the "Hunt for Red October", as it pings slowly at first and then faster and faster! brat
 
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