And So It Starts. A Lesson In Insanity

Red not Dead

Junior Member
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utelore said:
Sanpan.....oouch....you truley boil my neocon blood :) ..but thats ok. The only aternative for a U.S government is a bleeding heart leftist socalist style of government.....no thanks. anyway the U.S did not start this with Iraq nor did we start this with the Irainians. 3,000 americans died on sep 11th and now all nations that "Hate" us are getting there due one way or another. I dont think you can call my president a lyer when most nations of the world believed that iraq possesed weapons of mass destruction. EVEN our former socialist president clinton stated that Iraq had WMD and he should be removed from power.....anyway I dont want to get to far off track here with the right and wrongs of Iraq. THIS is about Iran who is threatening to wipe a race of people off the planet because they are Jews. NO NATION WHO CALLS FOR SUCH ACTION SHOULD HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS. ITS BLACK AND WHITE RIGHT AND WRONG AND IRAN IS WRONG.......cheers ute.........PS: I know you enjoy "good drink" as do I. Have you ever had "honey wine" I just had some a few weeks ago......truly enjoyable......cheers ute.

Utelore Stop that C*** please if you had no intentions to go to war why not allowing more time to the inspections (that by the way led to ...zip). Most of agencies had Us tailored information and even your guys from DOFA were making all war mongering arguments risible. The russians were saying from the beggining that there were no WMD in the place. Bush knew it, that was the crucial point that allowed the decision to go to war. Fact is that they called for Iraq's transparency pour la forme as we say in french.

About clinton's socialism..he was btw the moct economically liberal president and a role model for the "new left" in europe. But that's somethhing you just can't get. I call that an american particularism. you don't knwo what a scandinavian socialist government is about. Please comme to europe, live it some time and then you'll see that actually the US is lagging so much behind the Nordic states.

Any way i don't want to sound trollish...just to flat out some misunderstandings.

Edit: Golle sorry for double posting but his statements were not on the same page.
 

utelore

Junior Member
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red...I am not denying that my nation wanted to invade Iraq for various self protecting intrests. I also believe the invasion of iraq was just and needed. I guess we can agree to disagree on our politics. you appear to be a leftest and I am a neocon. this post is about Iran wanting to wipe israel off the face of the earth and nothing more. we can argue till were blue in the face;) about various forms of government but thats why we have elections to have the govenment we want and I have that govenment with president Bush:) but again lets stick to the issue at hand which are the comments and actions by Iran against Israel.....cheers ute
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
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Good to have conversation in here after one months of silence, but lets not flame to each other. How embarasent it would look to others if we would jump agaisnt each others throats? Not very profesional...???

So no country brahsing....
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Kind of interesting and newer article I have found. enjoy


LONDON, August 23 (IranMania) - Iran's main military objectives are the development of its air defences as well as its ballistic missiles, the man nominated to be the Islamic republic's defence minister said Tuesday, according to AFP.

In a confirmation hearing before parliament, Mostafa Mohammad Najjar outlined "developing and expanding the air defence system and missiles" as "highlights of the programmes of the defence industries".

The speech by Najjar, who like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a veteran of the elite Revolutionary Guards, also outlined the development of "nanotechnology, information, developing modern ammunitions ... and equipment for electronic warfare" as priorities for the defence sector.

Tehran's rapid progress on its ballistic missile program is a major cause for concern among the international community, with Israel alarmed over Iran's nuclear activities.

Iran said it achieved a major breakthrough in May when it successfully tested a new solid fuel motor for its arsenal of medium-range ballistic missiles.

The new technology could be built into Iran's Shahab-3 missile, which the Islamic republic says already has a range of at least 2,000 kilometresmiles).

Military analysts also say Iran has developed a strong air defence system amid speculation that the United States or Israel could attempt air or missile strikes against its controversial nuclear facilities.

The Iranian parliament has since Sunday been hearing from each member of Ahmadinejad's 21-man cabinet.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Hi Utelore

Have you ever had "honey wine" I just had some a few weeks ago......truly enjoyable......

By God yes. We call such drinks Mead in the UK and is one of the oldest forms of Alcohol in Britain. It can be anything from Beer through wine through to Liquore. :p :p I always keep a bottle handy.

But to business

i) Do not mistake me for a leftwinger - that would be incorrect.

ii)
THIS is about Iran who is threatening to wipe a race of people off the planet because they are Jews

A classic victory of spin over substance, this is not what was said. He called to wipe the State of Isreal off the map and that is very different.

A State is an incorporated non-personal body just like a Corporation and these days increasingly hard to differentiate. In the old days states were family owned businesses (Monarchys) and now have become publicly owned companies (Republics).

Calling to Wind Up and Liquidate a State is simply that, a call to close down a legal entity. When Enron went bust, nobody executed the workforce did they?, same logic applies here - by precise legal definition, the standard against which all International discourse is measured against.

Re-Incorporating Isreal back in the 40's has been a monumental error, one which has cost the lives of many thousands and ruined the lives of many millions. The question is, why are we all expected to bend over backwards for the adherents of this bizarre and sociopathic Middle Eastern Cult (there is no Jewish Race, they are indisguishable in all key genetic markers from other Palestinian populations) which has done nothing but cause trouble since it was slung out of Egypt 4000 years ago?

They lost their state 2000 years ago and their campaign to Re-Incorporate it, was as ludicrous as if residents of Eastern England were to start campaigning in order to Reserrect Queen Bodicea's Kingdom of the Icenii!!!.

Isreal is a failed experiment and it should be wound up as quickly as possible. It simply is not worth all the suffering and loss of life.

On the lighter side of course, I can suggest a solution. "Dubya" has quite a bit of warm Desert Seaboard with a large River, in the South of his very own Texas. This would be a home to home for the Israeli citizens.
In addition, given their skills for building barricades and keeping people out, they could be just the people he has been looking for to go down there. Hell they could even take Jerusalem with them, stone by stone.

Hailsa
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Sanpan, Yes Honey wine (mead) is truly a joy to drink. If you could recommend a original English brand that I could find here in the states that would be great. but back to our little professional banter:)

You and I both know that Israel is here to stay baring a 10 megaton bomb that makes it disappear like a puff of kosher smoke:) . Israel understands this and will do everything in its power to prevent such action from taking place.DING DING this is were Iran comes in and this is were the problem arise.

Anyway Yes as a matter of fact My governor here in the great state of Colorado is consulting with the Israeli government of the cost of building a fence across the south border of the U.S to prevent the crossing of illlegals. It is a HUGE problem here in my state. There are more than 250,000 of them in Colorado alone. It is Taxing our health care system and being in law enforcement it is a huge problem for us a well for various reasons:( .....cheers ute:)
 

Red not Dead

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utelore said:
red...I am not denying that my nation wanted to invade Iraq for various self protecting intrests. I also believe the invasion of iraq was just and needed. I guess we can agree to disagree on our politics. you appear to be a leftest and I am a neocon. this post is about Iran wanting to wipe israel off the face of the earth and nothing more. we can argue till were blue in the face;) about various forms of government but thats why we have elections to have the govenment we want and I have that govenment with president Bush:) but again lets stick to the issue at hand which are the comments and actions by Iran against Israel.....cheers ute


Buddy you know me...if we have to go to war together i would cover your six, no matter you being a nazi, jesus or karl marx him self. I just understand you very much. That's the american particularism I was speaking about. You have a universalistic ethnocentric view on the world (and it's not wrong per se) that simply can be inappropriate (Iraq being the case). That's all. I just slipped offtopic, sorry buddy.
 

SampanViking

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Hi Utelore

Yes Honey wine (mead) is truly a joy to drink. If you could recommend a original English brand that I could find here in the states that would be great.

Not so easy I'm afraid. Mead is a speciality drink nowadays mainly brewed by Cottage Industries and mainly sold through Art & Craft Fairs. There was a Commercial Brew called Merrydew - but I cant recall seeing any of that for a very long time. There is a beautiful Liquer version made in Scotland, made by the Highland Winneries, Moniack Castle. It might be available through the net or mail order.

You and I both know that Israel is here to stay baring a 10 megaton bomb that makes it disappear like a puff of kosher smoke . Israel understands this and will do everything in its power to prevent such action from taking place.DING DING this is were Iran comes in and this is were the problem arise.

Another highly forgivable victory of spin over substance. Isreal certainly seems secure against the status quo, but the status quo is shifting and doing so in a way that is likely to make Isreal far more vulnerable than many people imagine. Indeed I would hazard a guess that the rhetoric calling to liquidate Isreal is more of a threat than any WMD, being developed anywhere.

Politics is the art of the possible, and the possible starts with wild voices on the fringes that gradually, over time works its way into the mainstream.

Currently Isreal looks secure, its backed by the major world powers, to which it provides valuable services, courtesy of its diaspora, providing International Banking Broking and Financing services to the West and East, since the collapse of the Roman Empire.

But this is changing, new powers are arising - China foremost and India nudging into view. Both have their own Diasporas and do not need Jewish services. This is where the crunch lies. Not only will the new powers not need Jewish services, but their old clients will also be provided with alternatives for those same services. Likewise the Oil Rich Muslim World, which had no real choice but to deal with the west (no other rich, high demand customers) on the Wests terms (Supply or Die!!) also have alternative rich high demand customers (China India etc) we see this already with Iran and Sudan (and Venezuala).

Add to this the continuation of calls from the Islamic world to wind up Isreal, plus a boycott of countries that support and trade with Isreal and its natural supporters, it would be unsurprising if Isreal became to be viewed as "Bad for Business".

Isreals business declines and therefore its ability to buy influence in the West declines - it becomes a vicous circle, whilst all the time its old supporters have to decide whether support for Isreal is worth losing out with regards the opportunites of the Eastern Boom Economies.

Without Western Support Isreal is not viable and this is why calls for its liquidation are taken so seriously - IT IS A SERIOUS OPTION.

If you follow the logic outlined here, you will not be surprised if by the middle of the 21st Centuary, Isreal has become the new North Korea, isolated, paranoid, bankrupt but heavily armed.

Bet you dont read this in the Western Daily Press;)
 
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chakos

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Firstly, Hi guys, guess im now part of this little professional discussion forum so thanks to Dongfeng for that.

Now with the niceties out of the way id just like to make a few points on this topic. I warn you all it may have a political side to it so feel free to pull out the steak knives and pick axes but at the same time this subject is highly political and really cant be viewed from a non-political objective.

The problem that the United States faces is that as much as it would love to internationalise this issue with Iran, no matter what Iran says, the fact is that Iran is making local threats to an old enemy whereas the U.S. is making threats against a country wich presents absolutelly no threat to it from the other side of the world. Iran does not have either the capability nor the desire to use WMD against the U.S. Think about it, the United States could obliterate Iran as a country for the next 5000 years if it was to do something stupid like launch a nuclear weapon against the States or even to supply a WMD to any terrorist group.

What i just said is pretty basic when you think about it so you have to look deeper as to the real interests of the United States in this issue. It has decided that it has to gain a larger influence in the middle east as well as to weaken its traditional rivals in the region. This may seem to be in the interests of Israel but Isreili interests are secondary, they are just a means to an end.

The world has become pretty wisened up to the fact that the United States has begun a path of Imperialism of the likes not seen since the British Empire and this is beginning to really annoy the shite out of the populations of the middle east who see themselves as the pawns in this little exersize. What the US has managed to achieve since September 11 (Wich by the way has no proof whatsoever of ANY link to ANY middle eastern country) is that it has united the Arabs like never before. The reasons for this is that although Israel has been a thorn in the side of the Arabs for years it has never invaded any country wholisticly. It has taken land from here and there, given some back, played its games and the like but it has never invaded an entire country and overthrown the government per se. The Arabs now see a real and immediate threat from the United States and the publics of these countries (US allied or not) are beginning to see the United States as the enemy.

So at the end of the day no matter how the U.S. tries to villify the Iranians it will not succeed simply because all Iran has done is talk some dirt about a local traditional enemy wherase the U.S. has a history of invading countries in the middle east for their own benefits. (Afghanistan is a different story because it was run by the Taliban and was supporting and housing Al'Quaeda.

The question the U.S. people need to ask of their government is whether this course of action is actually beneficial to them as a nation in not only the near term but in the long term. What is there to be gained by such an agressive foreign policy and whos interests does it really serve?

I pose this question to Utelore in particular. Why do you think that the U.S. has the right to impose its will on any country throughout the world regardless of the direct proof of the countries involvement in terrorism. (If there is undisputed proof then i am sure the United Nations will have no issue backing any action.)

And most importantly why is it that the United States see itself as beeing able to play outside the international rules simply because it has the military power. It is setting a dangerous precedent throughout the world that in mu view will lead to its downfall. Remember, Nazi Germany had the most powerfull military in the world at the time and it still was defeated not because of one particular act but simply because it pushed and pushed until the rest of the world realised that it had simply pushed to far and that it had to be stopped.

I dont ever want to see it come to this but it agonizes me to think that noone in the US government even thinks along those lines... The rest of the world does have an opinion and does have the ability to take action. The rest of the world also includes countries like China, Russia and the EU, countries that have beeing playing empires for many years and that have extremelly long national memories.
 

Gollevainen

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Well welcome to the 'vip' club chakos, (Im planning to but an sticky introduction thread to this forum so all of you can introduce yourselfs and why partically you have been choosed to this club)

But as the political conversation has rosen to be a 'dirty word' expecially while conserning anti-US matters, I would advice to be wery carefull what to write and remember to respect all of those members that are actually US citicens. But i also trust that we can discuss politics in this forum whit these members, whitout turning into flamethreads and useless propaganda ans so on...So for this martial law state, lets 'freeze' these feelings for a while, shall we?
 
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